May 26, 2014, 8:47 am
Last edit by: SingaporeDon
Every forum on Flyertalk has a personality. A forum gains a personality through user input over time, and Lifemiles is a very definitive example of how users have developed a unique community.
While Flyertalk boards actively encourage sharing of info, the Lifemiles community has developed and thrived via obscuring of certain data elements. It may not be easy for new participants to break through the codes and gain knowledge of the program's quirks, but the overall board community has adopted this unique approach. And frankly, that is not going to change overnight.
If a FT member wants to participate on this board, then they will need to respect other users. Hence, posts that run counter to this community's standards, will be removed.
While Flyertalk boards actively encourage sharing of info, the Lifemiles community has developed and thrived via obscuring of certain data elements. It may not be easy for new participants to break through the codes and gain knowledge of the program's quirks, but the overall board community has adopted this unique approach. And frankly, that is not going to change overnight.
If a FT member wants to participate on this board, then they will need to respect other users. Hence, posts that run counter to this community's standards, will be removed.
C1 North America
C1.5 Caribbean, Bermuda
C2 Europe
C2.5 Middle East
C3 Asia
C4 South America
C5 Africa
C6 Oceania
2X, 3X: in the context of this LifeMiles thread, 2X and 3X refer to any 2nd and 3rd legs of a one-way award ticket.
LifeMiles' Star Alliance Award Chart
LifeMiles' old Star Alliance Award Chart (before Oct 15 2014) // Table of changes
Cash & Miles redemptions: the price per mile purchased during award booking varies significantly depending on how many miles are purchased. The "sweet spots" are between 38% and 58% of the total mileage required, where miles are purchased for 1.5 cents. See here for some examples.
Beware of Cabotage: LifeMiles has been known to issue tickets that constitute Cabotage, and at least one instance of denied boarding has been reported, stranding the passenger. An easily-seen example is travel on Copa from LAX to SJU (via PTY).
Understand Cabotage: Departing country 1, transiting country 2, returning to country 1 (no stopping) *is* cabotage (example: depart JFK, connect in YYZ to return to ORD, or depart Miami, connect in Bogota, return to San Francisco). On the other hand, departing country 1, going to completely unrelated country 2, and ending up in country 3, is not cabotage. So if you fly JFK-JNB-ZRH, for instance, this is completely not cabotage.
Availability: Seeing availability for *A award seats elsewhere is no guarantee they are accessible on Lifemiles. For instance award space shown on ANA often is not accessible on Lifemiles. Similarly, finding award space on single legs doesn't mean you'll get award space on the combined itinerary. And no, there is no way to overcome that.
Screenshot Method
Send email to [email protected] with attached screenshots on Lifemiles website of each individual leg showing availability. Also, screenshot showing no availability as one booking. Include passenger names, gender and DOB and copy of passenger passport. They will either call you for payment or email the itinerary and give you 3 days to call up and make payment by CC.
NOTE: This previous thread has been closed; it can be read here LM F and J routes (and the occasional trick-it)
LM F and J routes (and the occasional trick-it) Rebooted v2.0
May 29, 2014, 1:58 pm
#121
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Germany / Thailand
Programs: M&M/S SPG livetime gold, but not running behind status & points anymore! Now only book value for $
Posts: 3,090
You are so close to it! But it was not 1/3rd it was 25 % !
as it is "closed" anyhow, I give some examples.
LH BKK-FRA-PVG or TG PAR/LON-BKK-DME
AMA always calculated the distance between origin and destination and the one of the longest leg ! And the distance between origin and destination @ least had to be 25% from the longest leg in the itin !
expl. LH BKK-PVG 1798 miles BKK-FRA 5599 longest leg > 25% = 1400 so this worked ! BKK-FRA-HKG not worked because BKK-HKG is less than 1425 miles ( here HKG-FRA is longer 5699 ).
Same TG CDG-BKK is 5878 LON is 5958
CDG-DME is 1547 and LON-DME is 1586 so this was ok with the 25% ! But even the so close to CDG positioned BRU was not valid !
BRU-BKK is 5762 and BRU-DME is 1409 ( But 25% from 5762 is 1441 ) , so it did not work !
It Looks like AMA set up the distance to over 55 %, but of course not only the distance, also still the layover time has to match !
as it is "closed" anyhow, I give some examples.
LH BKK-FRA-PVG or TG PAR/LON-BKK-DME
AMA always calculated the distance between origin and destination and the one of the longest leg ! And the distance between origin and destination @ least had to be 25% from the longest leg in the itin !
expl. LH BKK-PVG 1798 miles BKK-FRA 5599 longest leg > 25% = 1400 so this worked ! BKK-FRA-HKG not worked because BKK-HKG is less than 1425 miles ( here HKG-FRA is longer 5699 ).
Same TG CDG-BKK is 5878 LON is 5958
CDG-DME is 1547 and LON-DME is 1586 so this was ok with the 25% ! But even the so close to CDG positioned BRU was not valid !
BRU-BKK is 5762 and BRU-DME is 1409 ( But 25% from 5762 is 1441 ) , so it did not work !
It Looks like AMA set up the distance to over 55 %, but of course not only the distance, also still the layover time has to match !
There used to be an implicit rule which I've corroborated on a number of boomerang options where the distance between origin and destination had to be at least 1/3 the shorter leg, so for instance some destinations at the western and eastern borders of a continent could be used while others more in the middle of that same continent couldn't, when the turnaround point was very far away... This rule only seemed to be applied with prefered airline routings.
Maybe this is part of the Amadeus algorithm?
What I believe happened is they've tightened that rule, so either it's simply a smaller divider or another calculation. Effectively that makes classical boomerangs impossible.
The problem is, given the current availability situation it's nearly impossible to test this. That's why if the Amadeus story holds true we would have a great test bed...
PS the one I spoke about earlier that didn't show up on Amadeus was an unforced boomerang. When we forced it on Amadeus (thanks for the help, GermanTraveller), it appeared. So that would be at least one data point corroborating the idea it could be Amadeus, and it could have to do with forcing the airline...
PPS I love Mozart
Maybe this is part of the Amadeus algorithm?
What I believe happened is they've tightened that rule, so either it's simply a smaller divider or another calculation. Effectively that makes classical boomerangs impossible.
The problem is, given the current availability situation it's nearly impossible to test this. That's why if the Amadeus story holds true we would have a great test bed...
PS the one I spoke about earlier that didn't show up on Amadeus was an unforced boomerang. When we forced it on Amadeus (thanks for the help, GermanTraveller), it appeared. So that would be at least one data point corroborating the idea it could be Amadeus, and it could have to do with forcing the airline...
PPS I love Mozart
May 29, 2014, 2:10 pm
#122
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: CDG
Programs: TK Elite
Posts: 1,611
You are so close to it! But it was not 1/3rd it was 25 % !
as it is "closed" anyhow, I give some examples.
LH BKK-FRA-PVG or TG PAR/LON-BKK-DME
AMA always calculated the distance between origin and destination and the one of the longest leg ! And the distance between origin and destination @ least had to be 25% from the longest leg in the itin !
expl. LH BKK-PVG 1798 miles BKK-FRA 5599 longest leg > 25% = 1400 so this worked ! BKK-FRA-HKG not worked because BKK-HKG is less than 1425 miles ( here HKG-FRA is longer 5699 ).
Same TG CDG-BKK is 5878 LON is 5958
CDG-DME is 1547 and LON-DME is 1586 so this was ok with the 25% ! But even the so close to CDG positioned BRU was not valid !
BRU-BKK is 5762 and BRU-DME is 1409 ( But 25% from 5762 is 1441 ) , so it did not work !
It Looks like AMA set up the distance to over 55 %, but of course not only the distance, also still the layover time has to match !
as it is "closed" anyhow, I give some examples.
LH BKK-FRA-PVG or TG PAR/LON-BKK-DME
AMA always calculated the distance between origin and destination and the one of the longest leg ! And the distance between origin and destination @ least had to be 25% from the longest leg in the itin !
expl. LH BKK-PVG 1798 miles BKK-FRA 5599 longest leg > 25% = 1400 so this worked ! BKK-FRA-HKG not worked because BKK-HKG is less than 1425 miles ( here HKG-FRA is longer 5699 ).
Same TG CDG-BKK is 5878 LON is 5958
CDG-DME is 1547 and LON-DME is 1586 so this was ok with the 25% ! But even the so close to CDG positioned BRU was not valid !
BRU-BKK is 5762 and BRU-DME is 1409 ( But 25% from 5762 is 1441 ) , so it did not work !
It Looks like AMA set up the distance to over 55 %, but of course not only the distance, also still the layover time has to match !
May 29, 2014, 2:45 pm
#123
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Austin, Texas
Programs: Airline nobody. Sad!
Posts: 26,062
LM F and J routes (and the occasional trick-it) Rebooted v2.0
Well, if that is the reason, I'm quite alright with that.
Last edited by TheBOSman; May 29, 2014 at 2:54 pm
May 29, 2014, 2:51 pm
#124
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 6,385
You are so close to it! But it was not 1/3rd it was 25 % !
as it is "closed" anyhow, I give some examples.
LH BKK-FRA-PVG or TG PAR/LON-BKK-DME
AMA always calculated the distance between origin and destination and the one of the longest leg ! And the distance between origin and destination @ least had to be 25% from the longest leg in the itin !
expl. LH BKK-PVG 1798 miles BKK-FRA 5599 longest leg > 25% = 1400 so this worked ! BKK-FRA-HKG not worked because BKK-HKG is less than 1425 miles ( here HKG-FRA is longer 5699 ).
Same TG CDG-BKK is 5878 LON is 5958
CDG-DME is 1547 and LON-DME is 1586 so this was ok with the 25% ! But even the so close to CDG positioned BRU was not valid !
BRU-BKK is 5762 and BRU-DME is 1409 ( But 25% from 5762 is 1441 ) , so it did not work !
It Looks like AMA set up the distance to over 55 %, but of course not only the distance, also still the layover time has to match !
as it is "closed" anyhow, I give some examples.
LH BKK-FRA-PVG or TG PAR/LON-BKK-DME
AMA always calculated the distance between origin and destination and the one of the longest leg ! And the distance between origin and destination @ least had to be 25% from the longest leg in the itin !
expl. LH BKK-PVG 1798 miles BKK-FRA 5599 longest leg > 25% = 1400 so this worked ! BKK-FRA-HKG not worked because BKK-HKG is less than 1425 miles ( here HKG-FRA is longer 5699 ).
Same TG CDG-BKK is 5878 LON is 5958
CDG-DME is 1547 and LON-DME is 1586 so this was ok with the 25% ! But even the so close to CDG positioned BRU was not valid !
BRU-BKK is 5762 and BRU-DME is 1409 ( But 25% from 5762 is 1441 ) , so it did not work !
It Looks like AMA set up the distance to over 55 %, but of course not only the distance, also still the layover time has to match !
May 29, 2014, 3:03 pm
#125
Join Date: Jun 2010
Programs: IC Amb :-(, UA silver, BA Gold, SPG Plat, A-Club Plat, Marriott Plat
Posts: 913
You are so close to it! But it was not 1/3rd it was 25 % !
AMA always calculated the distance between origin and destination and the one of the longest leg ! And the distance between origin and destination @ least had to be 25% from the longest leg in the itin !
It Looks like AMA set up the distance to over 55 %, but of course not only the distance, also still the layover time has to match !
AMA always calculated the distance between origin and destination and the one of the longest leg ! And the distance between origin and destination @ least had to be 25% from the longest leg in the itin !
It Looks like AMA set up the distance to over 55 %, but of course not only the distance, also still the layover time has to match !
Certainly worth exploring.... does anyone know of a way to get visibility into Amadeus routings 'filtered' for *A carriers? KVS does not seem to offer that ability.
Also - I'm not sure I grasped the 'second' reference to 'AMA set up the distance to over 55%' though ? - would it be possible to clarify?
I've edited the quote because I fully expect these to re-emerge in the future.... almost always happens with FDs if you wait long enough :-)
May 29, 2014, 3:12 pm
#126
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Austin, Texas
Programs: Airline nobody. Sad!
Posts: 26,062
It's not just you! http://lifemiles.com looks down from here.
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May 29, 2014, 3:28 pm
#127
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Germany / Thailand
Programs: M&M/S SPG livetime gold, but not running behind status & points anymore! Now only book value for $
Posts: 3,090
any example , where it worked ? C3 - C3 , where the direct distance between origin and dest. was less than 25 % from the longest leg ?
That sounds reasonable but I don't think it applies to all cases, as for ex-c3 boomerangs any itins ex-icn didn't seem to work, even when the flight times aligned and space was available. Similarly, I can think of boomerangs where flight distance was less than 25% of origin - destination and it still worked on lm.
May 29, 2014, 4:06 pm
#129
Join Date: Jun 2010
Programs: IC Amb :-(, UA silver, BA Gold, SPG Plat, A-Club Plat, Marriott Plat
Posts: 913
May 29, 2014, 4:58 pm
#130
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: BTS
Posts: 611
- ***-*** - 3952 mi
- ***-*** - 3278 mi
- ***-*** - 676 mi
- C1-C1 had ***-***-*** and ***-***-***,
others that come to mind are ***-***-***, ***-***-***.
But, I don't see many such exceptions to the 25% *rule*
Well there are still working boomerangs where this is not satisfied (I'm seeing as low as 25.7% working)
Last edited by scibuff; May 30, 2014 at 5:59 am Reason: removed airport codes
May 29, 2014, 6:56 pm
#132
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Denver
Posts: 85
Not sure how Amadeus was treating these; don't think it was distance based. It seemed to me that it was region based.
YVR SEA LAX SFO DEN where in one region
YYZ BOS IAD NYC MIA on the east.
Gray zones were DFW IAH
ORD seemed to have the least amount of options
ICN NRT PVG PEK one region
BKK KUL SIN another
HKG gray zone
Certain married segments would allow F to pop up 3 months out. That was the first to disappear a month ago.
After the FT member's incident, US-US went first 5-7 days before Can-US disappeared.
All viewable on Amadeus.
Amadeus is also weird. Some flights that depart shortly after midnight would not appear. Most Middle east to Europe departures and some Asia to Europe departures. So those flights would never be listed as an option even when F was available. Even now, when you search BKK to LHR/CDG/ZRH as an example and specify TG, Amadeus will not show the midnight flight. But still bookable through LM as a direct flight.
YVR SEA LAX SFO DEN where in one region
YYZ BOS IAD NYC MIA on the east.
Gray zones were DFW IAH
ORD seemed to have the least amount of options
ICN NRT PVG PEK one region
BKK KUL SIN another
HKG gray zone
Certain married segments would allow F to pop up 3 months out. That was the first to disappear a month ago.
After the FT member's incident, US-US went first 5-7 days before Can-US disappeared.
All viewable on Amadeus.
Amadeus is also weird. Some flights that depart shortly after midnight would not appear. Most Middle east to Europe departures and some Asia to Europe departures. So those flights would never be listed as an option even when F was available. Even now, when you search BKK to LHR/CDG/ZRH as an example and specify TG, Amadeus will not show the midnight flight. But still bookable through LM as a direct flight.
May 29, 2014, 7:24 pm
#133
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: BTS
Posts: 611
The distance rule seems more plausible to me, especially to explain why certain C2 cities worked for boomerangs to C1 / C3 and others didn't, i.e surely (DUB, LHR,) AMS, FCO, MAD, ZRH, FRA, MUC are not split into different regions.
May 29, 2014, 7:48 pm
#134
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 6,385
perhaps it's a combination of both. the amadeus timetable theory makes perfect sense, and so does the distance idea. but there are exceptions to both rules.