skywardhunter

That is confusing.

skywardhunter

TL/DR North American airlines have indoctrinated their customer base to accept a sub-par product which they then misleadingly call "First Class" contrary to the rest of the entire world's understanding of what First Class is, on aircraft that don't even offer Business Class, then those customers defend such airlines to the death when offered conflicting opinions from those who travel elsewhere in the world in superior products.

Best comparison would be AA and EK on 1h, 3h, 7h and 12h segments, see what products each offer, in all classes of service. Are you confident AA will prevail?

dll

Not entirely limited to North American airlines. Travel within China and you'll see the same - "First" class on domestic routes (even regional routes) is standard norrowbody recliner. Personally I'm quite happy that US carriers offer a proper premium cabin, even if it's a slightly larger seat. Travel in Europe or South America doesn't always offer the privilege. I would much rather that than the alternatives Lufthansa, TAM/LATAM or BA present to their customers on narrowbody flights.

3Cforme

Markets are different, and often served with different products. That's true of air travel, cars, and clothing, among other consumer purchases.

A few people in this thread keep demonstrating their ignorance of the domestic U.S. market, still among the largest air travel markets. I don't see how that can be rewarding for them.

skywardhunter

Which carriers are those?

rjw242

Given that EK can't offer US domestic service, I'm 100% AA will prevail.

More to the point, even if foreign carriers could operate US domestic routes, I'm always baffled why people believe they'd magically offer better service than US carriers rather than matching the prevailing market price and service levels.

dll

Compared to Europe, Delta, American, Alaska and United all are well ahead of their European peers. Granted, their stage lengths are shorter on average, but would I rather fly Lisbon-Frankfurt (~3 hours) or CDG-AMM (4h 40m) in LH or AF's slimline Y seat or American's 737 F seat? Easy answer. Grateful we have the option, given how the industry's been behaving.

And Virgin America, until the retrofit to Alaska's updated interiors happens, are still leading the pack.

DatBoi

South America is jam packed with fifth freedom flights by QR, EK, ET, TK among others. LATAM, Aerolineas and Avianca all offer better narrowbody services than the American carriers.

skywardhunter

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and AA doesn't service DXB-BOM, wonder who'll prevail there. You know what argument I was making, reductio ad absurdum, regardless of the route, comparing flights of similar distance. Why should a 3h flight between two US cities be different to a 3h flight between two middle eastern cities? Or SYD-AKL, or HKG-BKK, or CMB-SIN, it's not like it's a single other market that EK lives in. And many carriers offer something closer to the US "F" service in such regional routes in the MEA region, e.g. QR and EY, also WY, MS and TK. Yet somehow there's still a market for the wide body flat-bed service EK offers. Are you saying that there's not sufficient demand for AA to provide flat bed service between JFK and ABQ, SLC and DEN, SEA and wherever.

Obviously there are a million factors, market dynamics are one of them, everyone offers a low-level premium experience so they get away with it, just like the arms race on trans cons is pushing the products back up. If you compare sector length, regardless of region or market, just sector length and product and service offered....that's my argument

DatBoi

Well said MR skywardshunter

jlemon

Since you specifically mentioned the Dallas - New York market, Alaska Airlines does offer nonstop service between Dallas Love Field (DAL) and New York LaGuardia (LGA) with Embraer 175 aircraft. Seat Guru says the pitch is 42" with a seat width of 21" in F on these flights which I believe are actually operated by SkyWest. And nope, this is not international F or J standards by any stretch of the imagination....but the E175 is not bad.

Back to AA, they do operate some U.S. domestic routes with aircraft offering their international J seats such as MIA-LAX with the 772, MIA-DFW with the 772, 763 and I think their international version of the 757 with lie flat J seats (looks like we'll be on one of those next month in the front cabin), DFW-LAX with the 789 and DFW-HNL/DFW-OGG with the 772.

Meantime, I've got a SFO-MIA nonstop flight on AA in F on the 738 coming up and I'm not expecting much. Hopefully, I'll get a hot breakfast out of SFO!

rjw242

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. You're making the common mistake of assuming all flights of the same length have the same economics.


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Antarius

Yep. Otherwise they would offer it.

Other big difference is the upgrade culture here vs the ME. EK isn't filling their flat beds on a 3 hour flight with people paying base level Y and upgrading; a sizeable chunk/majority are paying passengers. You aren't getting 12-16 paying J passengers on JFK-ABQ paying a premium for flat beds.

DatBoi

Why wouldn't people pay for a flatbed?
definitely more willing to pay than between Colombo and Chennai in J (impoverished, 45 min flight)
where in addition to a flatbed, champagne and full bar is available, pdb is served, hot/cold towel and 3 course meal service.

skywardhunter

Perhaps they're not paying because they know they don't have to...