Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > American Airlines | AAdvantage
Reload this Page >

My Colleague Was Bumped from Upgraded F Seat by a Celeb

Community
Wiki Posts
Search

My Colleague Was Bumped from Upgraded F Seat by a Celeb

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Dec 17, 2017, 2:38 pm
  #76  
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Programs: AA, DL, Avis, Enterprise, National, IHG, HH, SPG/MR
Posts: 1,852
Originally Posted by arlflyer
And therein lies the problem. Those pesky customers and their ignorance! We'll teach them a lesson, now won't we?!

People approach these things like matters of law. Oh, the CoC, let's wave that in everyone's face and pound the table; that'll show 'em. I rest my case, blah blah blah. Yeah, you win the battle, but have you lost the war? The $1M lifetime value CK walks - you're proud and list this on your CV, I'm sure. Mr. Parker gives you a promotion?
Yeah. Like it or not the rules matter.

And it’s not likely a CK will walk for something so frivolous as being told to fly in the seat he paid for. In fact, I’d speculate that it would tke a heck of a lot more for a CK to discontinue his business than a customer with lower or no status.

But these aren't legal problems, they are indeed marketing problems - a discipline which in fact addresses more than "sugarcoating" to avoid damaging "fragile egos". And they are, unfortunately for your bull-in-a-china-shop black-and-white worldview, more nuanced than the prosecutorial mindset you advance can support. AA's business isn't to uphold a legal standard passed down in its CoC, it's to maximize return for its shareholders. Doing so is a balancing act. And, given the resources placed on the AAdvantage program, likely supported by data which you and I are not privy to, I suspect that they believe said program, and its explicit and implied benefits, to be valuable. So, go ahead, off with your best customers' heads, it's just marketing after all. Maybe that flies in your lines of work, but not many others.
Except that if a benefit was actually denied there would be grounds for a breach of contract suit.

If it were me? "Mr. Sanders, I'm so sorry, but this flight is pushing back full. May we escort you to the Flagship Lounge while we arrange for the next flight out in an hour?"
How do you know he was on personal travel? How do you know the corporate contracts AA has with the networks doesn’t require making a seat available? How do you know the value of a corporate contract is less than that of a single CK? There are a lot of assumptions here (on both sides) that cannot be verified. The terms, however, are absolute.
kb9522 is offline  
Old Dec 17, 2017, 2:42 pm
  #77  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: USA & UK -- AA EXP 3.5MM, Hyatt Diamond, SPG Plat, Avis President's Club
Posts: 6,411
Originally Posted by arlflyer
So why doesn't AA remove upgrades from its program? They're making representations that this is a feature of the program. Why do you think AA is making these representations, and why do you think AA maintains this program? Do you not believe that it drives incremental revenue? Is it not AA itself that is fostering this "outrageous entitlement"?
Comp upgrades have always been on a space available basis. When someone bought the FC seat, space was no longer available.
A CK at ~$50k/year - ...
If CKs are such Big Spenders who just Reek Of Money, why don't they buy FC?

Nowhere in the terms and conditions does AA guarantee FC travel at coach prices.
Zacnlinc likes this.
CloudCoder is offline  
Old Dec 17, 2017, 4:26 pm
  #78  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Escondido, CA
Programs: US Chairman no more. AA EXP
Posts: 682
Neon Deion Sanders is a huge celebrity - maybe not in the same category as Diddy or the Kardashians but he is big time. Who cares about flying first for a forgettable segment? You have the story that you got kicked out of your seat for Primetime and makes for good conversation down at the local tavern.
jfinsocal is offline  
Old Dec 17, 2017, 5:50 pm
  #79  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Programs: UGS, AA CK
Posts: 212
Originally Posted by kb9522


They should remove this offering because people are ignorant about the conditions? Should they also just stop carrying people and luggage for the same reason?



Those representations are still subject to the rules both parties have agreed to. The rules don’t go away just because you or I don’t like them.



Why should AA have to pay the consequences for the ignorance of its customers?



I don’t work for AA’s marketing team, I don’t have the burden of having to sugarcoat things to avoid hurting fragile egos.


you obviously have no idea how business, especially customer service business, works.
ijgordon likes this.
staren937 is offline  
Old Dec 17, 2017, 7:06 pm
  #80  
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: New York
Programs: AA, CX, Hyatt, Marriott
Posts: 1,484
I am so confused, if the BP was printed with a F seat assignment, then it was AA who enabled "entitlement" to the pax, so where was that "sense of entitlement" coming from? With this logic, AA could literally sell F on an auction basis until T-1 and bump the lowest bids? Maybe even English auction instead of Dutch then huh?
fedechat likes this.
andersonCooper is offline  
Old Dec 17, 2017, 7:36 pm
  #81  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: DCA
Programs: UA LT 1K, AA EXP, Bonvoy LT Titan, Avis PC, Hilton Gold
Posts: 9,658
I had to do a search to see who this was. 50 year old, retired football player, with estimated net worth of $40M. Not exactly a super Celeb. I am guessing the GA was a fan of his and processed the downgrade to give him the F seat.
cova is offline  
Old Dec 18, 2017, 12:11 am
  #82  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: LAX
Programs: AAdvantage EXPLAT, Hilton Diamond, SPG/Marriott Gold, IHG Platinum, Citi Exec MC, Amex Plat
Posts: 1,443
Originally Posted by dc10forlife
Deon Sanders is a celebrity? Yea, I would have been upset. Now if had been a real celebrity, like Giannis Antetokounmpo, I would have been ok with it.
Deon Sanders was one of my favorite players growing up as a Cowboys fan, but I only recognize him in his uniform, and to be honest, I don’t recall seeing his face much, mostly just his helmet and jersey

I wouldn’t even recognize him if he sat down next to me, I suppose I’m bad with faces when they’re out of the arena I know them in.
matrixwalker2012 is offline  
Old Dec 18, 2017, 1:46 am
  #83  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Thousand Oaks, Ca., USA
Programs: AA Lifetime Plat; Bonvoy Titanium Lifetime Elite;Hyatt Globalist; HHonors Diamond; United Silver
Posts: 8,318
Originally Posted by kb9522


Absolute nonsense. He got from A to B on the fares he paid in the past. Not one penny of that money was for a guaranteed F seat down the road

What an outrageous sense of entitlement...
This notion of guaranteed an F seat is not what I'm talking about. Buying an F ticket doesn't buy a garanteed F seat either. The CoC DOES NOT give carte blanche, and I think that bumping a seated passenger to take more money from a walk up is inappropriate. So far from an outrageous sense of entitlement by most views here.
beachfan is offline  
Old Dec 18, 2017, 7:24 am
  #84  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Huntsville, AL
Programs: DL DM 1.929MM, Hilton Lifetime Diamond, IHG Platinum, Avis CHM, Marriott Titanium (lifetime gold)
Posts: 7,860
Originally Posted by golfingboy
Personally I would think either $200 or 15K miles to be an appropriate compensation for downgrading a CK member especially after letting the customer board.
I believe UA offers $200 downgrade compensation for revoking any customer's upgrade. 7500 miles is chintzy.
DiverDave is offline  
Old Dec 18, 2017, 8:42 am
  #85  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 3,698
Originally Posted by kb9522




So two things here.

1. I’ve gone slightly down the wrong path... It seems this was an oversales issue. There is even less ambiguity about it now.


Hopefully you are not a lawyer; your contractual interpretations leave a lot to be desired. In fact, you're trying to have it both ways in this conversation. On the one hand, you are claiming that AA reserves the right to change seat assignments for "operational" reasons. Importantly, they don't reserve the right to rescind upgrades or move you between classes of service in the provision you're quoting so it's not at all unambiguous that it applies to this situation. More to the point, you're also arguing that on the other hand the plane is somehow "oversold" even though there's obviously a seat available in coach, so in order for this interpretation to hold up AA would have to care very much indeed about the fact that first class is a different than coach and can be oversold while coach is not. If that's the case, this "seat assignment" argument obviously doesn't apply since they're moving OP's colleague from one product to another, not just changing the assignment.

In any case, let's go with your pivot and assume we're talking about an oversold situation. Please let us know which section of the CoC allows AA to downgrade passengers on this basis.

2. Lacking a formal definition in the context of the document, the common meaning applies (as someone pointed out to me in another thread). Operational means anything pertaining to normal function and activity. I would argue that getting passengers from A to B is a normal function, so yes, they would essentially have carte blanche. But I agree it would be interesting to see a court decision about it.
Actually, while you're getting some free legal education on FlyerTalk you should read up on the concept of contra proferentem, which generally applies to contracts of adhesion. When there's an ambiguity in a contract like this, the courts will generally interpret in a way that works against the interest of the party who wrote the language in the first place. As has been previously pointed out, they could have said "any reason" in the CoC and chose not to for some reason. A court might very well choose a much more limiting definition of the term since AA got to draw up the contract and the customer had no choice in the language.
jordyn is offline  
Old Dec 18, 2017, 9:06 am
  #86  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 6
Originally Posted by 869
If pax buys F and AA chooses to offer Y so someone else can fly F, pax should absolutely be allowed to cancel for refund. AA would argue they should compensate like $50 though.
But the passenger did not buy F.
mrtraveller is offline  
Old Dec 18, 2017, 9:30 am
  #87  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Finally back in Boston after escaping from New York
Posts: 13,644
Hey, AA is a business and is in it to make money. If they can get money for a seat that they gave away for free, why not?

I have an even better proposal: AA sells every ticket with the condition that, if they can get somebody to pay more for it later, they have the right to rescind the sale to you. You will, of course, have the right to match the price that the other passenger was willing to pay and, in that case, you will get to keep your seat. If you are in F, they have the right to downgrade you and pay you the difference between what you paid and the highest cost of any coach fare sold.

Even better: Set the entire situation up as an auction. When you buy a ticket, you will see the seat map, and every seat will show what the highest bidder is for that particular seat. Winner gets the seat.

This whole situation is ridiculous. AA gave him a boarding pass. He boarded. He should have been allowed to stay.

Mike
DiverDave, fedechat and arlflyer like this.
mikeef is offline  
Old Dec 18, 2017, 9:52 am
  #88  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: DL: Silver; AA: EX PLAT; UA: Silver; HY: DIA; HH: DIA; MR: TIT
Posts: 1,708
Originally Posted by kb9522


Absolute nonsense. He got from A to B on the fares he paid in the past. Not one penny of that money was for a guaranteed F seat down the road

What an outrageous sense of entitlement...
I fail to see anything "outrageous" about the idea that once one is upgraded they remain upgraded. A GA bending the rules to upgrade this guy is what is outrageous. Also, even if the unicorn contract that the NFL Network has with AA guarantees F/J availability on every flight it operates, it would not allow ticketing beyond the normal time parameters. There is no way that Neon Deion getting at the gate at T-11 minutes and demanding an F class seat is supported by said contact IMHO.
LINDEGR is offline  
Old Dec 18, 2017, 1:14 pm
  #89  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Dallas, TX
Programs: WN A-list Preferred and CP, AA EXP, Hilton Diamond, RIP Kimpton
Posts: 853
FWIW, I'm highly confident in stating that Deion flies 80-100 paid F segments on AA each year. I don't know if his travel habits have changed in recent years but I do know those numbers to be accurate over the 2010-2014 time period.
mctrees02 is offline  
Old Dec 18, 2017, 1:15 pm
  #90  
869
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: DFW
Programs: AA EXP
Posts: 1,590
Originally Posted by mrtraveller
But the passenger did not buy F.
Reading comprehension on point.
869 is offline  


Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.