Aug 8, 2016, 12:26 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
Seat issues are not uncommon between finding, holding, booking and during the interim between booking and flying. There may be various reasons this can happen.
Seat held, changed or gone at booking: One member theorizes a held seat may be taken by a positive purchase by another passenger. But it could be due to another factor listed below.
Disability designated seat: Some seats are assigned preferentially to people with disabilities, and their companions, under the Air Carrier Access Act. Even some non-disability seats may be required for a person with a disability in some conditions.
"American blocks a limited number of seats on each aircraft to accommodate customers who identify themselves as having a qualified disability. Adjacent seats are provided, under certain circumstances, for customers with disabilities who must travel with a companion for assistance."
Flight nearly full: Once a flight has reached certain capacity guidelines, no further seats will be assigned. This leaves airport staff room to deal with the needs of persons with disabilities, no shows, delayed connections, etc.
Boarding pass scan fail: Sometimes a boarding pass scan fails (listen for the "Beep!") and your seat may register as no show, so another, later Passenger or standby gets your seat too.
Equipment change: AA Information Technology's very inefficient at these. You may have selected a Main Cabin Extra as an elite, yet a change from one aircraft subtype with differently numbered seat rows to another and you may find yourself moved from your carefully selected MCE aisle seat to a middle seat in one of the last rows. Aircraft substitutions from one type to another (77W to 772 or v. v.) or even "downgauging" (767 to 757) may occur - this will generally result in unanticipated seat changes.
Equipment malfunction: A seat may not be available on a specific flight because it was reported as malfunctioning and has not been repaired yet.
Crew rest seat: Some seats are contractually required to be set aside for resting crew, on flights of specific lengths.
Federal Air Marshal ("FAM"): FAMs are generally accommodated in the highest class of service in seats that are often popular with passengers. These accommodations may occur at any time, and by law AA must both comply and not reveal to passengers the reason for their seat loss or change. That's correct: AA is prohibited by law from telling you your seat was given to a FAM, so you will only hear implausible and made up reasons of how you lost your seat.
Other: AA might be required to seat a passenger with a small child together, displacing another passenger. There may be other reasons as well.
It is suggested you regularly check your itineraries to deal with route and flight changes (often unannounced) and seat changes (always unannounced).
Link to thread detailing use of Twitter for contact with AA (some have used for seat loss remediation)
Seat assignments Link
- We make every effort to ensure you get your chosen seat, but seat assignments are not guaranteed.
- We reserve the right to change seats for operational, safety or security reasons.
- You must check in at least 30 minutes before departure and be at the gate 15 minutes before departure or you may lose your seat.
Disability designated seat: Some seats are assigned preferentially to people with disabilities, and their companions, under the Air Carrier Access Act. Even some non-disability seats may be required for a person with a disability in some conditions.
"American blocks a limited number of seats on each aircraft to accommodate customers who identify themselves as having a qualified disability. Adjacent seats are provided, under certain circumstances, for customers with disabilities who must travel with a companion for assistance."
Flight nearly full: Once a flight has reached certain capacity guidelines, no further seats will be assigned. This leaves airport staff room to deal with the needs of persons with disabilities, no shows, delayed connections, etc.
Boarding pass scan fail: Sometimes a boarding pass scan fails (listen for the "Beep!") and your seat may register as no show, so another, later Passenger or standby gets your seat too.
Equipment change: AA Information Technology's very inefficient at these. You may have selected a Main Cabin Extra as an elite, yet a change from one aircraft subtype with differently numbered seat rows to another and you may find yourself moved from your carefully selected MCE aisle seat to a middle seat in one of the last rows. Aircraft substitutions from one type to another (77W to 772 or v. v.) or even "downgauging" (767 to 757) may occur - this will generally result in unanticipated seat changes.
Equipment malfunction: A seat may not be available on a specific flight because it was reported as malfunctioning and has not been repaired yet.
Crew rest seat: Some seats are contractually required to be set aside for resting crew, on flights of specific lengths.
Federal Air Marshal ("FAM"): FAMs are generally accommodated in the highest class of service in seats that are often popular with passengers. These accommodations may occur at any time, and by law AA must both comply and not reveal to passengers the reason for their seat loss or change. That's correct: AA is prohibited by law from telling you your seat was given to a FAM, so you will only hear implausible and made up reasons of how you lost your seat.
Passengers seated in the front cabin (or front of the cabin in single cabin and class aircraft) may occasionally find themselves displaced from their seat without any notice or comment, displaced to a less favored seat or even downgraded to the next lowest class of service. Contacting AA may provide answers as to "why" that don't make sense, multiple or non-specific reasons. These will often mean your seat has been requisitioned by a Federal Air Marshal (FAM).
Q. Why won't AA tell me why I lost my seat?
AA is prohibited by law from telling you your seat was requisitioned by a FAM or otherwise revealing there is a FAM on board or where they might be seated. FAMs are supposed to blend in with passengers. At best, you may be told "it's a security issue"; that's usually a confirmation of a FAM seat requisition.
Q. Can I get "unFAMed"?
There is no way to recover your original seat if it has been requisitioned by a FAM; you have no recourse other than to work with the AA system to seek a better available seat, or even reaccommodation on another flight with available and similar seating.
Q. Can I get compensated for losing my seat?
You can request fare differences, compensation and certainly get upgrade instruments reinstated if you were displaced to a lower class of service. You will not be eligible for compensation if your seat was changed within the same class of service (even if you are now separated from travel companions), however, as if you book a specific seat, a specific seat is not guaranteed by American Airlines.
Q. What is a FAM, anyway?
A Federal Air Marshal is a specially trained plain clothes anti-terrorism law enforcement officer of the Federal Air Marshal Service (FAMS), "a United States federal law enforcement agency under the supervision of the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) of the United States Department of Homeland Security (DHS)." (Wikipedia)
Q. What is a FAMs specific job?
"The Air Marshal Service is meant to promote confidence in civil aviation by effectively deploying federal air marshals (FAMs) to detect, deter, and defeat hostile acts targeting the United States." (TSA)
Q. Why won't AA tell me why I lost my seat?
AA is prohibited by law from telling you your seat was requisitioned by a FAM or otherwise revealing there is a FAM on board or where they might be seated. FAMs are supposed to blend in with passengers. At best, you may be told "it's a security issue"; that's usually a confirmation of a FAM seat requisition.
Q. Can I get "unFAMed"?
There is no way to recover your original seat if it has been requisitioned by a FAM; you have no recourse other than to work with the AA system to seek a better available seat, or even reaccommodation on another flight with available and similar seating.
Q. Can I get compensated for losing my seat?
You can request fare differences, compensation and certainly get upgrade instruments reinstated if you were displaced to a lower class of service. You will not be eligible for compensation if your seat was changed within the same class of service (even if you are now separated from travel companions), however, as if you book a specific seat, a specific seat is not guaranteed by American Airlines.
Q. What is a FAM, anyway?
A Federal Air Marshal is a specially trained plain clothes anti-terrorism law enforcement officer of the Federal Air Marshal Service (FAMS), "a United States federal law enforcement agency under the supervision of the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) of the United States Department of Homeland Security (DHS)." (Wikipedia)
Q. What is a FAMs specific job?
"The Air Marshal Service is meant to promote confidence in civil aviation by effectively deploying federal air marshals (FAMs) to detect, deter, and defeat hostile acts targeting the United States." (TSA)
It is suggested you regularly check your itineraries to deal with route and flight changes (often unannounced) and seat changes (always unannounced).
Link to thread detailing use of Twitter for contact with AA (some have used for seat loss remediation)
AA seat assignment loss / change / glitch / problem / FAM (master thread)
Jul 1, 2018, 12:05 pm
#511
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: SLC
Programs: AA EXP, Marriott Plat
Posts: 616
A supplemental comment to Jdiver's post. I think it is important to note FAMs sit in a location the best allows them to address any perceived threat on board. If a FAM sits in first class, it likely appears no per-determined threat is on board, and they are choosing to sit closest to the pilots by default.
Jul 1, 2018, 12:36 pm
#512
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Brighton. UK
Programs: BA Gold / VS /IHG Diamond & Ambassador
Posts: 14,203
I see u are fairly new here (at least posting wise), but there are formulas that AA uses (well kind of) and since you were coming out of the EU, u might have a claim under EC 261. But when u say "difference in price". what are ur comparison? ie, there are many F fares and many business fares, so its hard for a GA to calculate on the spot. Contact CR.
If he had actually been downgraded to J then he would be entitled to reimbursement of 75% of the fare he paid for the LHR-DFW sector (excluding fees and taxes) in cash / credit back to the method of payment within 7 days and certainly not at the gate. Any cash cards given at the gate would be an interim payment. Under EU261 there is no statutory compensation for a downgrade and the wording is very specific in that. It is a specific formulae and not related to fare differences - unlike US rules which I understand is based on fare difference.
I'm going to stick my neck out and state that 75% of the F fare would be a lot more than an J-F fare difference.
If AA wanted to throw him a couple thousand miles as a good will gesture then they can do that but there is no way on earth that AA will give him enough for 2 F TATL flights.
Jul 1, 2018, 1:52 pm
#513
Join Date: Feb 2016
Programs: DL DM, SPG Plat 100/LT Gold, Marriott Plat, National Executive Elite
Posts: 2,988
Partial explanation and makes sense. But if I was FAMed, what about the low-dollar voucher offer rather than offering the actual difference in the ticket prices? It appears that AA is passing along part of the costs of carrying the marshals to their displaced passengers.
I would be unhappy with all this uncertainty at the airport and having to "negotiate" my seats back. Unacceptable especially in paid F.
FAM or not, AA and their AAgents should be retrained to handle a situation like this INFINITELY better. The story as posted is completely unacceptable.
Jul 1, 2018, 2:26 pm
#515
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Austin, TX - AUS
Programs: AA Platinum, Hilton, Hyatt, IHG, Marriott
Posts: 1,625
FAMs usually sit closest to the cockpit to provide best protection for the pilots flying the plane. On the 77W this means first class.
I think it makes most sense to un-upgrade a F passenger who was upgraded from J, instead of bumping a paid F passenger. But, F tends to sell well on LHR flights so maybe no J->F upgrades were initially processed. I think a more appropriate compensation for the OP would have been refund the fare difference between the J equivalent of the F fare paid - for example difference between discounted F and discounted J.
By now, AA should know a FAM could be onboard any flight and block seats in advance, then release them if no FAM requires the seats.
I think it makes most sense to un-upgrade a F passenger who was upgraded from J, instead of bumping a paid F passenger. But, F tends to sell well on LHR flights so maybe no J->F upgrades were initially processed. I think a more appropriate compensation for the OP would have been refund the fare difference between the J equivalent of the F fare paid - for example difference between discounted F and discounted J.
By now, AA should know a FAM could be onboard any flight and block seats in advance, then release them if no FAM requires the seats.
Jul 1, 2018, 2:46 pm
#516
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Brighton. UK
Programs: BA Gold / VS /IHG Diamond & Ambassador
Posts: 14,203
OP was also travelling with his wife so that may have also been a factor in his decision making rather than $$.
If this had been me like you I would have taken the $1k and got the gate agent to sign a piece of paper or writing it on any document / receipt for the $card saying that this was in addition to any other payments due from AA re downgrade whether it be fare difference (US rules) or 75% of the sector fare (EU rules) - whichever was best for me (likely to be the 75%)
Jul 1, 2018, 2:47 pm
#517
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: PHX, SEA
Programs: Avis President's Club, Global Entry, Hilton/Marriott Gold. No more DL/AA status.
Posts: 4,422
Partial explanation and makes sense. But if I was FAMed, what about the low-dollar voucher offer rather than offering the actual difference in the ticket prices? It appears that AA is passing along part of the costs of carrying the marshals to their displaced passengers.
Jul 1, 2018, 2:49 pm
#518
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,624
Given what seems to be an approach to avoid paying up the correct amount automaticlaly, I suspect that one the agents were aware that you knew the entitlements, that they would target someone else to downgrade
Jul 1, 2018, 4:00 pm
#519
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: PHL
Programs: HH Lifetime Diamond, AA EXP, Marriott Titanium
Posts: 587
We got FAM'd last week on a family trip.
I knew it was coming (Seat assignment disapeared, called and told 'security') so had my daughter and wife check a bag. When they tried to involuntarily downgrade my wife (no status, Mileage ticket) i interceded at the gate by asking as innocently as i could muster if it was possible for them to offload her and put her on the next flight in confirmed F (Knowing that would cause them baggage problems).
Thankfully they didn't call my bluff, and magically found a way to target someone else or get a volunteer or make another seat magically appear (whatever, i got all three of us in F, just not seated where we preferred and that was NBD).
The dude in her old seat was so obviously a FAM, it may as well have been tattooed on his forehead.
I knew it was coming (Seat assignment disapeared, called and told 'security') so had my daughter and wife check a bag. When they tried to involuntarily downgrade my wife (no status, Mileage ticket) i interceded at the gate by asking as innocently as i could muster if it was possible for them to offload her and put her on the next flight in confirmed F (Knowing that would cause them baggage problems).
Thankfully they didn't call my bluff, and magically found a way to target someone else or get a volunteer or make another seat magically appear (whatever, i got all three of us in F, just not seated where we preferred and that was NBD).
The dude in her old seat was so obviously a FAM, it may as well have been tattooed on his forehead.
Jul 1, 2018, 8:54 pm
#520
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: PVD, BOS
Programs: AA EXP
Posts: 1,664
That said, it's really hard to be sympathetic given tone of the post. Perhaps this should be merged with DYKWIA thread...
Jul 2, 2018, 6:40 am
#522
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 153
Airline agents (no matter, if passenger services or security) are certainly not allowed to disclose any information, if FAMs are boarded, where they are seated or how many they are.
I've never seen another reason for an OS-situation, in the highest offered class of service, than FAMs.
Seems like the agents wanted OP to read between the lines, as they simply can't say what is going on.
I've never seen another reason for an OS-situation, in the highest offered class of service, than FAMs.
Seems like the agents wanted OP to read between the lines, as they simply can't say what is going on.
Jul 2, 2018, 7:28 am
#523
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: MCI
Programs: AA LT Gold; BA Silver; Hilton Diamond
Posts: 3,081
If I ever paid almost $10K for a round trip I wouldn't expect to be the passenger (figuratively) thrown out on the tarmac, either. I'm glad the OP held his ground and that he and his wife eventually got on the flight in First Class. I fly Paid Business on TATLs and would expect that if they need to bump someone it would be a passenger using miles for the flight or for an upgrade. (And, when flying in award seats, I expect that I have a higher chance of being bumped or otherwise inconvenienced.)
Last edited by Athena53; Jul 2, 2018 at 11:08 am
Jul 2, 2018, 8:25 am
#524
Join Date: Jul 2018
Programs: AAdvantage Platinum
Posts: 7
This dialogue regarding our experience with AA has been very interesting and educational.
But what AA actually was doing remains a big question . A 70-something year old passenger who AA sat in 1D, one of our assigned seats, and his wife in 1A, were most certainly not FAMs. And I was ultimately seated in our other previously assigned seat, 1J. My wife ended up across the aisle and aft of me in the only other seat in row 1. What happened to the FAMs? Was the "security" claim simply a ruse to try to justify something else that had happened? Keep in mind that the earlier LHR to DFW flight had been canceled, so AA had a whole plane of 777-300ER pax needing seats to Dallas.
Further, the offer of compensation AA made at the time was clearly limited to two $1000 vouchers. When I told him that I thought I was due the difference e in the fares, the gate supervisor clearly told me, "that is not how it works."
Finally, as far as EU261 mandating compensation of 75% of the F fare, good luck with getting AA to honor that. I will go somewhat off topic to relate another experience with AA.
Two years ago on an international flight from Vancouver to DFW, AA failed to transfer the checked baggage for two of us to our connecting flight at DFW. So 100 lbs. of fresh salmon filets packed with frozen gel packs overnighted at DFW in 90+ degree heat. When the salmon arrived at our destination the next afternoon, the temperature in the two boxes was about 65 degrees, so the fish was spoiled. The retail value of fresh (never frozen) King salmon filets was about $30/lb not including overnight shipping, so we lost over $3000 worth of fish. Some research indicated that the Montreal Convention, international law to which AA is theoretically supposed to comply, provides for up to about $1525 per passenger for damaged baggage with no exceptions allowed for fragile, perishable, or valuable items.
When I contacted AA about making a claim, they said that any claim had to include a receipt showing the cost of the damaged goods. I explained that obviously there was no receipt possible for fish my companion and I had personally caught, but they could easily confirm the value for fresh King salmon filets on the internet. I also had photos of the opened boxes showing the fish after they arrived. Nope, a receipt confirming the purchase was required or no compensation. AA also claimed no compensation was due for perishable items damaged by AA. I replied that under the Montreal Convention regulations, there was no such exception for fragile or perishable items on international flights. Nope, no compensation. Was this worth filing a lawsuit in small claims court? I made the decision to avoid the hassle. Perhaps a mistake.
As far as our latest experience, given the F seats ultimately provided, there was no financial loss. Only the frustration that spoiled what we expected to be a very nice experience.
But what AA actually was doing remains a big question . A 70-something year old passenger who AA sat in 1D, one of our assigned seats, and his wife in 1A, were most certainly not FAMs. And I was ultimately seated in our other previously assigned seat, 1J. My wife ended up across the aisle and aft of me in the only other seat in row 1. What happened to the FAMs? Was the "security" claim simply a ruse to try to justify something else that had happened? Keep in mind that the earlier LHR to DFW flight had been canceled, so AA had a whole plane of 777-300ER pax needing seats to Dallas.
Further, the offer of compensation AA made at the time was clearly limited to two $1000 vouchers. When I told him that I thought I was due the difference e in the fares, the gate supervisor clearly told me, "that is not how it works."
Finally, as far as EU261 mandating compensation of 75% of the F fare, good luck with getting AA to honor that. I will go somewhat off topic to relate another experience with AA.
Two years ago on an international flight from Vancouver to DFW, AA failed to transfer the checked baggage for two of us to our connecting flight at DFW. So 100 lbs. of fresh salmon filets packed with frozen gel packs overnighted at DFW in 90+ degree heat. When the salmon arrived at our destination the next afternoon, the temperature in the two boxes was about 65 degrees, so the fish was spoiled. The retail value of fresh (never frozen) King salmon filets was about $30/lb not including overnight shipping, so we lost over $3000 worth of fish. Some research indicated that the Montreal Convention, international law to which AA is theoretically supposed to comply, provides for up to about $1525 per passenger for damaged baggage with no exceptions allowed for fragile, perishable, or valuable items.
When I contacted AA about making a claim, they said that any claim had to include a receipt showing the cost of the damaged goods. I explained that obviously there was no receipt possible for fish my companion and I had personally caught, but they could easily confirm the value for fresh King salmon filets on the internet. I also had photos of the opened boxes showing the fish after they arrived. Nope, a receipt confirming the purchase was required or no compensation. AA also claimed no compensation was due for perishable items damaged by AA. I replied that under the Montreal Convention regulations, there was no such exception for fragile or perishable items on international flights. Nope, no compensation. Was this worth filing a lawsuit in small claims court? I made the decision to avoid the hassle. Perhaps a mistake.
As far as our latest experience, given the F seats ultimately provided, there was no financial loss. Only the frustration that spoiled what we expected to be a very nice experience.
Jul 2, 2018, 8:50 am
#525
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: LAX
Programs: AA Lifetime Gold but PlatPro thanks to LPs
Posts: 4,439
My best guess.
TSA notified AA they needed seats in F. AA has no choice, no option but to put them where they request and move passengers elsewhere. AA may not tell the passengers about the FAM. Thus, if the passenger presses for an explanation, it's just a vague "security" reason.
Later, TSA notified AA they did not need the FAM seats. Thus, passengers were re-assigned and you got your FC seats.
That scenario explains your experience.
Remember AA, by law, must comply with the TSA FAM requests, and, by law, may not pass that info to passengers. They have NO CHOICE in this. It's infuriating to the passenger, sure, but there is nothing any AA employee can do about it.
Having read FT for a while and having read about FAM issues, I personally think it's wise to not ever book tickets in row 1 of any aircraft. That is where the FAM will sit to be closest to the cockpit. Best to pick other seats in the first place and then let the folks in row 1 deal with the FAM issues. Since I rarely fly F, I do indeed invite correction or clarification from other more experienced FTers.
TSA notified AA they needed seats in F. AA has no choice, no option but to put them where they request and move passengers elsewhere. AA may not tell the passengers about the FAM. Thus, if the passenger presses for an explanation, it's just a vague "security" reason.
Later, TSA notified AA they did not need the FAM seats. Thus, passengers were re-assigned and you got your FC seats.
That scenario explains your experience.
Remember AA, by law, must comply with the TSA FAM requests, and, by law, may not pass that info to passengers. They have NO CHOICE in this. It's infuriating to the passenger, sure, but there is nothing any AA employee can do about it.
Having read FT for a while and having read about FAM issues, I personally think it's wise to not ever book tickets in row 1 of any aircraft. That is where the FAM will sit to be closest to the cockpit. Best to pick other seats in the first place and then let the folks in row 1 deal with the FAM issues. Since I rarely fly F, I do indeed invite correction or clarification from other more experienced FTers.