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Account audit / blocked / fraud: award / miles / SWU / sale, barter, etc..
Account audit / blocked / fraud: award / miles / SWU / sale, barter, etc..
ARCHIVE: Account audit / fraud issues - Busted selling miles / SWU / VIP, etc (consol
#1441
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: LAX
Programs: AA Lifetime Gold but PlatPro thanks to LPs
Posts: 4,440
Just for my own edification, I had a look at sahiljain22's past messages. I don't get the impression he is some kind of naive newcomer to airline travel and frequent flyer programs. In my opinion, for whatever it's worth, this guy knew exactly what he was doing and now expresses shock that he did not get a warning before the account was closed.
Today on CNN.com, there's a blurb about a celebrity getting banned from the blackjack tables in a Las Vegas casino.
I found this part of the article interesting, especially consider debates in this forum about the definition of "legal" and "illegal" actions with frequent flyer mile accounts:
The source did not say whether casino security accused <the celebrity> of card counting, which is not a crime. It is frowned on by casinos, and it can lead to a ban by a gambling establishment.
Simlarly, various activities involving FFMs are not actually illegal, but are in violation of the terms and conditions of the airline programs. When discovered the airline (just like the casino) says "You are not welcome in our frequent flyer mile program.", the account is closed and the balance reset to zero.
#1442
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: DFW, SEA and AA in between
Programs: AA-3MM-ExPLT
Posts: 1,146
Simlarly, various activities involving FFMs are not actually illegal, but are in violation of the terms and conditions of the airline programs.
Just for grins, Michigan law (because it popped up 1st on Google):
http://law.onecle.com/michigan/750-m...l-750-218.html
750.218 False pretenses with intent to defraud; violation; penalty; enhanced sentence based on prior convictions; "false pretense" defined.
Sec. 218.
(1) A person who, with the intent to defraud or cheat makes or uses a false pretense to do 1 or more of the following is guilty of a crime punishable as provided in this section:
...
(c) Obtain from a person any money or personal property or the use of any instrument, facility, article, or other valuable thing or service.
Sec. 218.
(1) A person who, with the intent to defraud or cheat makes or uses a false pretense to do 1 or more of the following is guilty of a crime punishable as provided in this section:
...
(c) Obtain from a person any money or personal property or the use of any instrument, facility, article, or other valuable thing or service.
(2) If the land, interest in land, money, personal property, use of the instrument, facility, article, or valuable thing, service, larger amount obtained, or smaller amount sold or disposed of has a value of less than $200.00, the person is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 93 days or a fine of not more than $500.00 or 3 times the value, whichever is greater, or both imprisonment and a fine.
Either way, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime...
#1443
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: BOS/ORH
Programs: AS 75K
Posts: 18,323
Here is something interesting.
He offered to trade AA miles for Jet Blue back in Sept 2011. He might have been on AA's Fraud Dept radar for some time.
He offered to trade AA miles for Jet Blue back in Sept 2011. He might have been on AA's Fraud Dept radar for some time.
#1444
formerly sahiljain22
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: BOS;NYC;YVR;YYZ;DEL;BOM
Programs: Amex Plat; HH Diamond; SPG Plat; Hyatt Diamond; United 1K; National EE; HSBC Premier
Posts: 532
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Last edited by sj22; Oct 3, 2014 at 4:09 pm
#1445
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: SFO
Programs: AA EXP
Posts: 5,270
Since it's a crime, and evidently a common one, you must be able to point to numerous criminal prosecutions of people engaging in this behavior, right?
#1446
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: LAX
Programs: AA Lifetime Gold but PlatPro thanks to LPs
Posts: 4,440
This is correct. Again, I am not justifying something, I was just surprised that the account was closed directly and wanted to narrow the discussion around this decision and AA's thinking.
I probably cannot reveal too much without divulging the names of others involved. But yes, we had all at some point posted about AA miles we were willing to trade, and this person PMed some of us and others responded to his trade request. And everyone got busted. He used the same email and phone number for all his requests, but different names. In each case, it was a partner award 3-4 days out in south east asia.
Its not about the AA trades. Its about folks on CC turning out to be brokers and not disclosing that and jeopardizing others. I have traded with some awesome people and made a lot of friends that way, and I think CC had a good honor system.
I probably cannot reveal too much without divulging the names of others involved. But yes, we had all at some point posted about AA miles we were willing to trade, and this person PMed some of us and others responded to his trade request. And everyone got busted. He used the same email and phone number for all his requests, but different names. In each case, it was a partner award 3-4 days out in south east asia.
Its not about the AA trades. Its about folks on CC turning out to be brokers and not disclosing that and jeopardizing others. I have traded with some awesome people and made a lot of friends that way, and I think CC had a good honor system.
You have probably been on a watch list for some time. You wonder what is AA's thinking. Probably something like this: "Let's dump the folks who are defrauding us once and for all. No warning, no negotiations, no playing around. Let them be some other airline's problem."
#1447
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: LAX
Programs: AA Lifetime Gold but PlatPro thanks to LPs
Posts: 4,440
I work with Big Data. I make a living at it.
#1448
formerly sahiljain22
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: BOS;NYC;YVR;YYZ;DEL;BOM
Programs: Amex Plat; HH Diamond; SPG Plat; Hyatt Diamond; United 1K; National EE; HSBC Premier
Posts: 532
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Last edited by sj22; Oct 3, 2014 at 4:08 pm
#1449
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: BOS/ORH
Programs: AS 75K
Posts: 18,323
I would have agreed except that there was no easy way of linking wife's account to my posts. .. perhaps a partial address history march, but nothing that would stand out. Account was in her maiden name too.
AA's termination email clearly said you engaged in activity with a known broker as their reason for termination.
AA's termination email clearly said you engaged in activity with a known broker as their reason for termination.
#1450
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,797
You have done it several times and done it quite deliberately
Why would a broker disclose that he is a broker; the whole of CC was a bokerage run by FT; it was actine as a middleman between random parties wishing to buy and sell items
Originally Posted by Superguy
I just find it odd that there are so many people getting high and mighty for trading on the CC when it's been going on for years on FT. Many of those who are complaining have probably used CC at least once in their FT careers to unload an unwanted/unneeded benefit or to make their travel a little more affordable. And yes, sometimes people even give stuff away for the karma.
Originally Posted by Superguy
Guess we should get rid of the MR, CC Churning, and Manufactured Spending forums too.
CC has generally been seen as a gray area. In many cases, it's trading amongst friends as many people have formed connections thru FT
CC has generally been seen as a gray area. In many cases, it's trading amongst friends as many people have formed connections thru FT
Genuine friends do not need a marketplace to help each other out
#1451
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Dallas, TX USA
Programs: Rapid Rewards/AAdvantage
Posts: 1,245
Trading with an individual vs a broker is different. In this case, a particular FT member PMed a few people including me for a trade. I spoke to this real person on the phone multiple times and booked his ticket in exchange for something I would receive later. This person turned out to a broker (so obviously when he told me on the phone his name is xxxx, he was telling a lie). Everyone he PMed for AA tickets had their account's flagged. This is how the CC fiasco started.
I did look up the history on this person before trading. He was an established member, had traded before, was not on the banned list, so no red flags.
I clearly explained this to AA and admitted to a trade. This was a honest mistake and I would not crib about a penalty but not sure if it was something you ban someone's account for, unless you really want to prove a point with cruelty.
PS: the reason for the ban by AA was trading with an established broker.
I did look up the history on this person before trading. He was an established member, had traded before, was not on the banned list, so no red flags.
I clearly explained this to AA and admitted to a trade. This was a honest mistake and I would not crib about a penalty but not sure if it was something you ban someone's account for, unless you really want to prove a point with cruelty.
PS: the reason for the ban by AA was trading with an established broker.
#1452
formerly sahiljain22
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: BOS;NYC;YVR;YYZ;DEL;BOM
Programs: Amex Plat; HH Diamond; SPG Plat; Hyatt Diamond; United 1K; National EE; HSBC Premier
Posts: 532
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Last edited by sj22; Oct 3, 2014 at 4:08 pm
#1453
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Dallas
Programs: AAdvantage EXP, IHG Spire, Marriott Gold, HHonors Gold, National Executive Elite
Posts: 1,523
I probably cannot reveal too much without divulging the names of others involved. But yes, we had all at some point posted about AA miles we were willing to trade, and this person PMed some of us and others responded to his trade request. And everyone got busted. He used the same email and phone number for all his requests, but different names. In each case, it was a partner award 3-4 days out in south east asia.
If that's the case, I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn, or better yet a friend who happens to be a Nigerian prince that needs to wire you some cash and he'll give you 25% of it for your troubles.
#1454
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Dallas
Programs: AAdvantage EXP, IHG Spire, Marriott Gold, HHonors Gold, National Executive Elite
Posts: 1,523
I meant everyone who he PMed and who booked tickets for him had their accounts flagged. It was the same flight, different passenger names.
Again no one really knew what was going on until accounts got flagged and those affected figured out that they booked tickets for the same FT member. It was within hours of each other.
Again no one really knew what was going on until accounts got flagged and those affected figured out that they booked tickets for the same FT member. It was within hours of each other.
#1455
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: LAX
Programs: AA Lifetime Gold but PlatPro thanks to LPs
Posts: 4,440
It's not a matter of fooling a computer query by a slight variation in spelling or use of your wife's maiden name. It's a matter of human beings using their human intelligence to dive into the database and figure out what you are doing and with whom.