beckoa

...because I haven't seen a thread on FT about WN fighting back

A big target IMO is ANC

diver858

WN can add all of the service it wants; all I care is that AS' new service attracts sufficient customers to make it economically viable. If I am not mistaken, San Diego is the 8th largest city in the US (by pop), high tourism demand, so there may be room for both for most new routes, expect one or the other to eventually retreat from some, particularly during the next recession / international incident. My earlier point was/is that AS likely has a lower cost structure, particularly using OO E175's, should be able to win any fare war, if they choose to defend a route.

qukslvr619

I think the advantage that AS has over WN is the ability to right size aircraft capacity to the demand in the market in that they can go from 76-181 seats (175 to 73E) whereas WN can basically either offer 137 or 175 seats (73G or 738). I think the other advantage is the ability to offer a F cabin. Also there is a cost advantage by having SkyWest/Horizon in their back pocket as well. The WN model works in certain markets, but I really think they will struggle on more of the competitive business markets where their product is less differentiated....a drink coupon and boarding group A isn't going to cut it.

jrl767

again, we FTers aren't altogether representative of the flying public at large ... there's a very sizable percentage of non-business travelers who fly those routes too, and for whom free checked bags is a very substantial differentiator; moreover, I suspect a lot of those folks really don't care whether they have to pay for a drink or when they board the jet

qukslvr619

Yes non-business travelers probably don't care....but I am talking about the larger group of a standard business/frequent traveler (that isn't the FT subgroup) who are not necessarily price sensitive and has an option of either flying WN or someone else in a competitive market such as ATLLGA. If you aren't checking a bag, the only other advantage I could see for flying WN is no change fees...but if you are traveling for business then either you can write off the fee or are buying a refundable fare. What advantage does WN provide there? Powerports...nope not even on the newer WN 738s. BoB?...stock up on those peanuts over at WN because DL has free snacks too and the ability to purchase something more substantial. Once you start throwing in things like lounge access, network/FFP redemption then you are talking to the FT crowd. But I just don't get the love for WN these days...yeah in the early 90's they were great because the came into a market with lower fares etc. But now they are just as expensive if not more than the network carriers.

I guess my beef is that the traveling public assumes WN is the cheapest and is so great because they offer a free checked bag. But its just like Wal-Mart...everyone assumes Wal-Mart is the cheapest when if you happen to do a little critical thinking you'll find that you can save 5% at Target just by linking your debit card and their cartwheel program as a means of shopper loyalty ends up with a much.

eponymous_coward

Isn't this discussion supposed to be about SAN?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Di...p_destinations

The only two destinations WN doesn't serve on that list are ones WN serves with an alternate airport (DAL and MDW).

If your options are "WN nonstop", "some other airline, but you have to connect a good chunk of the time", or "some mix of other airlines because not all your destinations are served nonstop", a lot of business travelers are going to pick "nonstop", regardless of drink coupons, assigned seating or how you board the plane.

Quite frankly, if my choices were "WN nonstop" or "Lots of connections via UA at SFO, but I regularly get screwed up by ATC holds", this isn't going to be much of a competition. WN is particularly strong intra-CA.

AS+AA at SAN may start being "well, OK... this is getting viable". Of course, if you're an AS elite on AA... no upgrade (so it's a Y to Y comparison, AS to WN). Vice versa for AA on AS.

qukslvr619

The comment was made that "FT'ers aren't representative of the flying public at large"; I used ATLLGA as a business market where WN wasn't the dominant carrier but would have decent frequency and lower fares. Overall if you don't care about fares, I couldn't see where WN would have any real advantage to a business traveler in terms of the product offering.

Connecting on UA intra-CA is pretty much hit or miss and I agree where WN offers a non-stop vs. playing the SFO fog/ATC lottery, WN is the more viable option. But then again in most SAN markets, WN is the dominant carrier so its not like there really is an option with respect to a nonstop. But it became the dominant carrier for various reasons; whether it was a combination of WN offering more attractive pricing or frequency in comparison to the previously dominant carrier either getting absorbed, becoming a hot mess, or just pulling out of the market.
Examples where WN is only nonstop/nonstop dominant carrier (not considering NK or G4):
SANLAS: HP schedule was always all over the place anyways
SANOAK*: UA previously operated during Shuttle period
SANRNO: victim of AA/QQ
SANSTL*: victim of AA/TW
SANMCI*: victim of YX
SANSJC*: victim of AA/QQ
SANSMF: UA previously operated during Shuttle period

*either currently operated by AS or adding service

So in these markets, with the exception of LAS and OAK, AS has added or is adding service. AS is clearly not competing on schedule/frequency and they are matching WN pricing....so all they can do is offer a better product and hope that on the intra-CA flights people will be willing to travel morning/noon/night.

I guess to me it seems an odd strategy. Who is AS going after? The price sensitive consumer will probably still book WN because while AS is the same fare, you have to pay for a checked bag. For the business traveler, there aren't a lot of options with respect to frequency so if they can't leave until 0900 and need to be in SMF before 12, they will end up booking WN. If they drop fares, WN will match and have more capacity. If they add frequency to match WN's sked, it will come probably thru E-175s so they will still have half of the capacity. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying the SAN expansion is a bad thing, but it will be very interesting to see how this shakes out.

formeraa

Actually, AA Golds on AS are screwed. While AS MVPs get preferred Y seating on AA, AA Golds do NOT get preferred seating on AS. Very unfair disadvantage for me as an AA Gold.

jumpdogjump

Yes, but don't forget, AA & partner elites get to board 1 group earlier than AS Credit card holders

diver858

Had a leisure trip booked for late May, used Avios for Saturday outbound, return the following Friday; Friday service has been eliminated, so it will now be necessary to spend another day in paradise. Works well for me, as there was no saver award availability when flights were originally booked...

beckoa

Ha.

Well, it does seem the Hawaii flights tend to have flux with the California market.

Glad it will work out for you.

hockeystl

Heard SAN-STL is getting the axe later this year. Anyone know the last day?

tom911

Expert Flyer shows November 4 as the last day of scheduled service SAN-STL.

hockeystl

Bummer. But thanks for the info. Didn't think it would last...took this route about once a quarter and never saw a full plane. :-(

RAD_PDX

As much as I loved this route and the $179 I/P fares, it doesn't take much to realize they weren't making money on that.