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Old Jun 1, 2019, 1:13 am
  #16  
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Originally Posted by kiwifrequentflyer
PJs are the dumbest things in existence. They are a novelty the first time you fly Business on an airline and after that they just become an incredibly unnecessary environmental blight on our planet. No one needs PJs. I am glad Air NZ doesn't have them.
Goodness, PJs clearly set you off! Would BYO PJs be an acceptable alternative in your book?

Personally, I'm not convinced that (airline) PJs are '...the dumbest things in existence...", although I have yet to attain full knowledge of all things that exist. I do accept it is possible that others may have such knowledge, and so I concede that there is a non-zero probability your thesis on the 'dumbness' of PJs is correct.

More seriously, I think the world has bigger things to be concerned with than the (potential) environmental impact of airline PJs on the planet. FWIW, I still wear my TG First and QF Biz 'jammies when it suits me.

Enjoy the long weekend
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Old Jun 1, 2019, 2:38 am
  #17  
 
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I kinda agree re: the pyjamas although I’d say the socks they provide are a bigger waste of space, especially if they are supposed to be “compression socks”, they certainly don’t provide that.

Unrelated, but I wonder how long (if at all) it will take for hotels to do away with their 4-5 throw away mini plastic bottles per room? That seems a lot more wasteful than pyjamas.
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Old Jun 1, 2019, 4:04 am
  #18  
 
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Many US hotels have or had announced moves away from single use toiletries. There has been a pretty significant backlash against this though, and plenty of concern about hygiene and contamination with bodily fluid after several incidents.

Speaking of earplugs you reminded me how terrible the black ones were. I actually don't recall them recently, but the last longhaul flights I took were in Feb. I take my own earplugs anyway.
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Old Jun 2, 2019, 6:42 am
  #19  
 
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Originally Posted by Thai-Kiwi
Goodness, PJs clearly set you off! Would BYO PJs be an acceptable alternative in your book?

Personally, I'm not convinced that (airline) PJs are '...the dumbest things in existence...", although I have yet to attain full knowledge of all things that exist. I do accept it is possible that others may have such knowledge, and so I concede that there is a non-zero probability your thesis on the 'dumbness' of PJs is correct.

More seriously, I think the world has bigger things to be concerned with than the (potential) environmental impact of airline PJs on the planet. FWIW, I still wear my TG First and QF Biz 'jammies when it suits me.

Enjoy the long weekend
Of course the world has bigger things to be worried about than PJs and amenity kits.

But let's be real. Most of us in here are in a very privileged part of society. We have the money and the ability to make smarter environmental choices. We have the money to bring our own PJs. We have the money to bring our own toothbrush. The people who need more junk less are NOT us and yet we are the ones that demand it and get given it the most.

I swear, there is no forum I have been to with a bigger sense of entitlement than Flyertalk. To see people criticising Air NZ for not giving them PJs, when in reality, those people don't need them and just want them to feel more elite and special.

I get what you are saying, my post was aggressive 😉 and I'll wear my PJs when I am on an airline that has them.

But the more priveleged I become, the more I feel the weight of the responsibility to be good to our environment. When I was younger and had less money, I had to make worse choices for survival. Now I choose more expensive, environmentally friendly options because I can. And it's painful to watch the most privileged part of society say that Air New Zealand should have PJs...
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Old Jun 2, 2019, 7:12 am
  #20  
 
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Originally Posted by kiwifrequentflyer
Of course the world has bigger things to be worried about than PJs and amenity kits.

But let's be real. Most of us in here are in a very privileged part of society. We have the money and the ability to make smarter environmental choices. We have the money to bring our own PJs. We have the money to bring our own toothbrush. The people who need more junk less are NOT us and yet we are the ones that demand it and get given it the most.

I swear, there is no forum I have been to with a bigger sense of entitlement than Flyertalk. To see people criticising Air NZ for not giving them PJs, when in reality, those people don't need them and just want them to feel more elite and special.

I get what you are saying, my post was aggressive 😉 and I'll wear my PJs when I am on an airline that has them.

But the more priveleged I become, the more I feel the weight of the responsibility to be good to our environment. When I was younger and had less money, I had to make worse choices for survival. Now I choose more expensive, environmentally friendly options because I can. And it's painful to watch the most privileged part of society say that Air New Zealand should have PJs...
Doesn’t your post above say you are ENTITLED to act in the way you espouse because you consider yourself better and more privileged than others who don’t have the resources allowing them to act or who don’t choose to act in the way you say you do - arrogant much? When did you last plant a tree? When did you last organise a Skype/Zoom videoconference to meet rather than fly? etc etc etc
While you use the word ‘painful’ I could say your post and your ‘PC-I know best’ attitude makes me feel nauseous. Surely the easiest thing for you to do would be to decline an amenity kit and give it back to the crew rather than dictate that no one should have one because YOU know best in your opinion.
Air NZ charges a premium price for Business/PE in most cases and if you are paying a premium price there is nothing wrong with expecting value - the hard product is not comparatively premium and if one is given a set of PJs or a toothbrush surely it is only environmentally unfriendly if one just discards them and doesn’t reuse them until they are worn out.
If you follow your ‘environmentally friendly’ thinking you should personally never fly in Business or PE again since you should be campaigning for NZ to do away with all premium seating and convert the whole plane into 10 wide economy to minimise space each passenger takes and fly as many passengers as possible per litre of yet fuel used. You would also advocate getting rid of all excess weight including IFE screens, have the lightest nonreclining seats, etc etc

In my opinion the real measure of wealth is not just money it is the ability to have self-determination to be able to make one’s own choices without undue external constraints - the key to this is ‘self’ - the true wealthy don’t dictate a lifestyle to others.
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Last edited by drajknox; Jun 2, 2019 at 7:50 am
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Old Jun 2, 2019, 1:48 pm
  #21  
 
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So let's stuff the environment

This is the type of attitude by Drajknox that makes me despair. How on earth would be know how many trees that someone who he presumably doesn't know has planted? And let's all live to excess, so that we and our children and grandchildren will eventually suffer.

Well said kiwifrequentflyer. The last thing we need are more pyjamas!
​​
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Old Jun 2, 2019, 3:51 pm
  #22  
 
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Pyjamas might be of use to someone who flies business once every 3 years. But it's ludicrous for someone flying even semi-regularly to end up with multiple pairs of pyjamas.

Seems a hugely unnecessary cost for airlines. Might make sense if they had them on demand.
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Old Jun 3, 2019, 1:21 am
  #23  
 
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I like the calling out of me over my environmental choices. "Do you make perfect environmental choices?" like pretty much everyone I don't make perfect choices or spend my life planting trees... Not that you know my choices to call me out on anyway? But regardless the idea that I don't make perfect environmental choices means I shouldn't make other good ones? That's a strawman argument if I have ever seen one.

I view my wealth as giving me the ability to make choices better for our environment and those around me even if it costs me extra money and less I feel special feelings.

You view your wealth as giving you the freedom to make choices "without constraints." ie to make choices regardless of how it impacts on others and the environment.

​​​​Well that's certainly your choice.
​​​​​
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Last edited by kiwifrequentflyer; Jun 3, 2019 at 1:43 am
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Old Jun 3, 2019, 1:43 am
  #24  
 
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Originally Posted by kiwifrequentflyer
I swear, there is no forum I have been to with a bigger sense of entitlement than Flyertalk. To see people criticising Air NZ for not giving them PJs, when in reality, those people don't need them and just want them to feel more elite and special.
At risk of derailing this thread even further, I recently saw on another frequent flyer website someone complaining about the first class experience being "cheapened" and "ruined" because an airline had stopped using colour boarding passes. It was honestly something that belonged in The Betoota Advocate.
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Old Jun 3, 2019, 3:16 am
  #25  
 
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Originally Posted by kiwifrequentflyer
I like the calling out of me over my environmental choices. "Do you make perfect environmental choices?" like pretty much everyone I don't make perfect choices or spend my life planting trees... Not that you know my choices to call me out on anyway? But regardless the idea that I don't make perfect environmental choices means I shouldn't make other good ones? That's a strawman argument if I have ever seen one.

I view my wealth as giving me the ability to make choices better for our environment and those around me even if it costs me extra money and less I feel special feelings.

You view your wealth as giving you the freedom to make choices "without constraints." ie to make choices regardless of how it impacts on others and the environment.

​​​​Well that's certainly your choice.
​​​​​
You’ve missed a number of points in your summary but the most important was the concept of SELF-determination - my major issue with your initial post was that you suggest that you should impose your choice of views on others and that they should not be able to have something which they may want and effectively use, and which would be included elsewhere by a competitor frequently for a lower price.

I believe that if a person is so passionate about an issue that they want to dictate something which may affect others they should not have double standards hence the references to not flying business or PE and consciously choosing to support higher density flying or avoiding flying altogether in the name of the environment.

As I said you can easily decline any amenity kit which is provided to you - that may be a great choice for you and if you don’t think the items are useful to you or up to your standards then I’d agree this would be perfectly sensible choice but none of my business.

In fact I am quite environmentally friendly in a number of ways and HATE and USUALLY avoid waste but I would rather make decisions about such issues for myself and not try to impose these views on others (I) because I do not feel that I am ENTITLED to do so and (ii) because I have insight that I do not always act consistently in this way and like to avoid being a hypocrit.

Your first point in the above post was completely incorrect - I was not making a ‘strawman’ argument as I never said you couldn’t make a choice for yourself - if you reread you will see I advocated you making your own choice in declining PJs - what I said makes me nauseous is entitled people believing they should make or advocate such choices for others.

I nearly didn’t post again on this thread as we are starting to get off topic but I do believe there is an important point that just because one believes one is privileged does not give one the right to impose one’s views on others especially when one doesn’t always act consistently. Don’t we all love it when we see politicians do this? Finally as I said ‘wealth’ is different things to different people. There is nothing that stops a person who is poor financially feeling incredibly wealthy because they have many around them who provide unconditional love and just enough resource to get by. In my view wealth includes self-determination but most of the time I don’t try to impose my will on others to unduly limit their ability to live their life as they see fit (as long as they obey the law etc).
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Old Jun 3, 2019, 3:24 am
  #26  
 
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Me literally just stating my opinions is me imposing my opinion on others and forcing them to have it by "dictating", but your posts are not imposing your opinion on me and "dictating" to me what I should do or believe?

😏🤔

I think this conversation has come to an end.

​​​​

Last edited by kiwifrequentflyer; Jun 3, 2019 at 3:43 am
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Old Jun 3, 2019, 7:46 am
  #27  
 
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Originally Posted by kiwifrequentflyer
Of course the world has bigger things to be worried about than PJs and amenity kits.

But let's be real. Most of us in here are in a very privileged part of society. We have the money and the ability to make smarter environmental choices. We have the money to bring our own PJs. We have the money to bring our own toothbrush. The people who need more junk less are NOT us and yet we are the ones that demand it and get given it the most.

I swear, there is no forum I have been to with a bigger sense of entitlement than Flyertalk. To see people criticising Air NZ for not giving them PJs, when in reality, those people don't need them and just want them to feel more elite and special.

I get what you are saying, my post was aggressive 😉 and I'll wear my PJs when I am on an airline that has them.

But the more priveleged I become, the more I feel the weight of the responsibility to be good to our environment. When I was younger and had less money, I had to make worse choices for survival. Now I choose more expensive, environmentally friendly options because I can. And it's painful to watch the most privileged part of society say that Air New Zealand should have PJs...
I totally understand your point. Single use pyjamas are wasteful, as are most single use products. Nobody could really argue with that.

But I'd be careful of getting too outraged. As somebody who chooses to fly a lot, and in premium classes, you're already making an outsized impact on the environment. Just the travel alone is a big use of resources, and the incremental extra impact to fly in business class rather than economy is *very* substantial. PJs or no PJs is a trivial difference by comparison.

I know, I'm guilty of exactly the same thing, and I grapple with this too. The reality is that air travel is just riddled with wastefulness - often I want just one or two items out of an amenity kit (eg the earplugs, and I often keep and reuse the lip balm) but I know that just by opening the kit all the rest of the contents are likely to be thrown out. There are vast quantities of plastic cutlery and glasses and food packaging thrown out after every flight.

I make an effort to mitigate this in various ways. I carbon offset my flights. I donate or reuse items from amenity kits (and I have several pairs of Qantas PJs at home which I enjoy using during winter time... though I draw the line at wearing a Qantas business class PJ top to the gym, as I saw someone do last week!). I refill and reuse plastic water bottles numerous times. And my primary form of transportation during the week is my own two feet, so I'd like to think my day to day carbon footprint helps to offset the fact I choose to travel more than most... but if I'm honest I know that my travel habit has very real environmental costs. And there are also times I use the supplied onboard PJs (on the airlines that offer them) because I'm travelling with cabin baggage only and it allows me to take fewer items with me.

I don't think PJs are an essential offering in business class or that an airline who doesn't offer them is necessarily ghetto or cheapskate. But I also think it's a stretch to accuse all those who do use them as being egregiously entitled and rapacious. Like you said in another post, it's all about making choices, and my mix of choices is likely to be different than yours... but I appreciate the opportunity of being able to make that choice myself.

What I really WOULD like to see is an airline making a really serious effort to address recycling and waste... and that means more than just agreeing to recycle the single-use coffee cups, AirNZ! That I would gladly support.
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Old Jun 3, 2019, 1:45 pm
  #28  
 
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One thing that's been missed in this conversation is that on airlines where PJs are offered, you aren't obligated to take them; it's a choice. If you want to use your own, that's fine.
Personally, I think airlines in general (and NZ specifically) are missing a trick by giving away cheap pens which only get used once to fill in the landing card and then forgotten. If they spent a little more on a quality pen (say $2 instead of 50c), frequent travellers would take them and either use them or gift them in the real world.
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Old Jun 3, 2019, 2:11 pm
  #29  
 
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I want to make this clear because I do think my post was confusing: I am not outraged over PJs. I just made a strong post for effect. I don't walk onto a plane and go "PJs! Never flying you again!" 😅 I am flying Virgin Australia later this year and even though they don't have any PJs small enough to properly fit me, I will indeed wear then.

In fact I am a very fallible human and like them. The first time I get given PJs by an airline I keep them as a souvenir 😉

And I think that liking nice things doesn't make you entitled!

The entitled attitude I called out is when people get UPSET at Air NZ for not having PJs. Or SQ for having their amenities in the bathroom so you can pick and choose what you need. It's not just about them being "cheap." In those discussions, our environment gets thrown out the window. They may, and we may, continue to do other dumb environmental things, but it doesn't hurt to make some changes.
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Old Jun 3, 2019, 2:20 pm
  #30  
 
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Originally Posted by kiwifrequentflyer
Of course the world has bigger things to be worried about than PJs and amenity kits.

But let's be real. Most of us in here are in a very privileged part of society. We have the money and the ability to make smarter environmental choices. We have the money to bring our own PJs. We have the money to bring our own toothbrush. The people who need more junk less are NOT us and yet we are the ones that demand it and get given it the most.

I swear, there is no forum I have been to with a bigger sense of entitlement than Flyertalk. To see people criticising Air NZ for not giving them PJs, when in reality, those people don't need them and just want them to feel more elite and special.

I get what you are saying, my post was aggressive 😉 and I'll wear my PJs when I am on an airline that has them.

But the more priveleged I become, the more I feel the weight of the responsibility to be good to our environment. When I was younger and had less money, I had to make worse choices for survival. Now I choose more expensive, environmentally friendly options because I can. And it's painful to watch the most privileged part of society say that Air New Zealand should have PJs...
Rather a long bow to draw to claim that your bringing your own pyjamas is better for the environment. Can’t wait to hear your logic.
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