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New policy for paid and miles upgrades (AF/KL) - sept 2017

New policy for paid and miles upgrades (AF/KL) - sept 2017

Old Sep 21, 17, 10:44 am
  #16  
 
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Should be interesting to see what these fares will be - JFK-CDG next week on the A380, RT was heavily discounted approx $400. Will check T-56. Thanks Goldorak
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Old Sep 21, 17, 12:11 pm
  #17  
 
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Still not entirely clear. Say I have a CDG-HND in J. Checking my reservation 56 hours before departure, would I then suddenly see Premiere seats offered at a price that would be less than the "normal" ticket fare? And the same at OLCI, would it be offered at an upgrade price that is less than the normal ticket fare? And when I arrive at CDG, could I just walk up to the Premiere check-in, say that I have seen on expertflyer or the AF website that there are free seats in P, and pay an upgrade price rather than a full fare upgrade?

Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
MMB upgrades could be purchased at any time, by any passenger, as long as there is availability.
OLCI upgrades would also seem to be available for all passengers, as long as there is availability. (Either offered explicitly or 'hidden' but you can get to it by looking at the seat map)
Yes, you're right. What I was thinking about were the upgrades that were offered by email, I think they were sent out before OLCI opened. And I don't think OLCI upgrade possibilities included Premiere? At least I have never seen it.

Originally Posted by bodory View Post
I see that as two different things:

- On the one hand the fare for upgrading, based on the availability in the desired class of travel (how is the original booking fare taken into account btw? ): could go from XXX EUR/USD etc. to ZZZ EUR/USD etc. with 3 intermediary fares.
- On the other hand the method of payment which could go from 100% cash to 100% miles with 3 intermediary mix.
Not sure where we actually have the same thing in mind. What I was thinking of are that the five possibilities offered for *one specific* flight were five prices, where each price corresponds to a form of payment. For instance (numbers made up), an upgrade for this flight offers the following five upgrade fares:

Flight AFxx, IAD-CDG, on September 21, upgrade from J to P:

Fare 1: 1500 USD
Fare 2: 1200 USD + 30,000 miles
Fare 3: 800 USD + 60,000 miles
Fare 4: 400 USD + 90,000 miles
Fare 5: 140,000 miles

Now, what certainly will be the case is that these prices can vary *from one flight to the next*, depending - as you said - on availability. Hence the same flight AFxx, IAD-CDG, on September 22, could look the following, simply because it has less availability:

Fare 1: 2000 USD
Fare 2: 1600 USD + 30,000 miles
Fare 3: 1200 USD + 60,000 miles
Fare 4: 800 USD + 90,000 miles
Fare 5: 180,000 miles

Originally Posted by bodory View Post
In my understanding one would be able to pay XXX EUR/USD etc. either by using 100% cash or any of the other 4 ways of payments.

Same for the 4 other fares.
I don't think that you have 5 different fares for one and the same flight, with each one offering 5 different mixes of cash and miles. What would those 5 different fares be based on, if not on different forms of payment? Availability of *a* flight is what it is, the fares get fixed 56 hours before departure, so what would be the difference between the five fares, if not the form-of-payment mix?

Therefore I think that every "fare" in fact corresponds to a certain mix of cash and miles.
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Old Sep 21, 17, 12:23 pm
  #18  
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I appreciate them working a bit on this, because it seemed odd that you previously had to rely on DoD upgrades to do a miles / cash / miles split.

We should see lowest prices at T-56 hrs and T-24 hrs (when the remaining upgrades likely adjust price to the lowest due to revenue mgmt).
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Old Sep 21, 17, 7:33 pm
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Originally Posted by San Gottardo View Post
...
Agreed on the variable prices from one flight/date to another.

Originally Posted by San Gottardo View Post
What would those 5 different fares be based on, if not on different forms of payment? Availability of *a* flight is what it is, the fares get fixed 56 hours before departure, so what would be the difference between the five fares, if not the form-of-payment mix?
Original fare bucket?
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Old Sep 21, 17, 11:57 pm
  #20  
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Interesting comments
I have another information : the news I have quoted for this thread has disappeared from the AFKL travel agent portal
I don't know how to interpret it : glitch ? posted by mistake or too early by AFKL?

Originally Posted by San Gottardo View Post
AFAIK Oscar is a user interface developed by Amadeus that shows a slider that customers can use on the webpage, where the slider can go on a range from only miles to only cash, and prices in between mixing different amounts of miles and of cash. I have seen something like that on Lufthansa webpages, maybe I can find a photo.
Thanks for the info

Originally Posted by San Gottardo View Post
What I don't know but would find interesting to know: does this mean that upgrades can now be bought by everybody? Wasn't it the case that until now that offers for upgrades would only go out by mail to selected passengers?
It changed a bit for a year or something like that. Indeed, I haven't received an e-mail for upgrade proposal for a very long time but was seing regularly some possibility to upgrade from Y to J medium-haul in the AF app during OLCI (or even after if you return to the check-in part to change your seat or just look at the seat map). Regarding the new system, I don't know if everyone will see an upgrade possibility. I have the feeling that it won't be the case because, as you rightly said, they don't want pax to buy a lower cabin and expect "systematically" to be able to pay for a cheap upgrade to the upper cabin. But I might be wrong.

Originally Posted by nldogbert View Post
Thanks for sharing. I am confused with this new policy

- are the upgrade prices (miles or $$) still be based on the booking sub-class?
- I hope I did not misunderstood this new policy as dynamic pricing - i.e as the cabin fills up, the prices increase (miles or $$).

No idea why they are changing the current policy which at least is simple to understand and fair to a certain level (i.e less miles needed for expensive tickets) - of me at least.
Unknown for the 1st question. For the 2nd, you rightly understood.
And about why they do that ? Simply to generate more revenue by introducing dynamic pricing as for revenue bookings.

Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
MMB upgrades could be purchased at any time, by any passenger, as long as there is availability.
OLCI upgrades would also seem to be available for all passengers, as long as there is availability. (Either offered explicitly or 'hidden' but you can get to it by looking at the seat map)

The e-mail offers were indeed only available for certain PAX, I'm not sure how will those be handled now...
I'm not sure there will be UG e-mails anymore, unless those are still targeted.

Originally Posted by MSPeconomist View Post
Is there a fixed conversion rate between miles and money? Or will this ratio somehow vary based on loads, fare or fare class purchased, etc.?

Does status on either AF/KLM (FB) or Sky Team matter? And can DL miles be used in place of FB miles, as AFAIK has been possible for "cheap" upgrades on KLM and DL flights departing from AMSA or otherwisae handled by KLM?

In fact, more generally, does this affect DL operated flights at all, including those (TATL) included in the JV such as DL departures from AMS (and now CDG apparently if AF and KLM flights are going to follow the same rules and pricing formulae now)?
I'm sure there will be a fixed conversion rate between cash and miles, like for the option payments (lounge access, extra luggage, etc).
For your question about DL flights, I wanted to include a part of the AF announcement that I haven't quoted in my original post, but as the news has now been removed by AF...

Originally Posted by natcin View Post
is it safe to assume that at T-56h, the more seats available in the cabin to be upgraded to, the lower the upgrade price will be? seems like there definitely will be a crowd at T-56 then, like brunos said. magical hour
Yes and yes.

Originally Posted by delanotre View Post
IMHO, anti-dilution means that they will sell free available seats at a minimum price that protect the "normal" market
OK understood Thanks

Originally Posted by San Gottardo View Post
Still not entirely clear. Say I have a CDG-HND in J. Checking my reservation 56 hours before departure, would I then suddenly see Premiere seats offered at a price that would be less than the "normal" ticket fare? And the same at OLCI, would it be offered at an upgrade price that is less than the normal ticket fare? And when I arrive at CDG, could I just walk up to the Premiere check-in, say that I have seen on expertflyer or the AF website that there are free seats in P, and pay an upgrade price rather than a full fare upgrade?
I believe it will be yes, yes and no. But do not expect big discounts for J to P (depending on the flight it will likely be from EUR 1500 to 2500, based on the current paid UG data points we have seen posted in the other thread).


Originally Posted by San Gottardo View Post
And I don't think OLCI upgrade possibilities included Premiere? At least I have never seen it.
There were some (I have received in the past UG e-mails for CDG-PVG and return from J to P for EUR 2500 each way).

Overall, there are a lot of uncertainties at that stage, the 1st one being is this implemented (see my introductory comment about the news being removed from the TA portal). Reporting here will be valuable for everyone. I oppose the following template for collecting info for the H-56 to DoD upgrades (any comment/suggestions are welcome):

- route :
- which class were you booked in (eco/PE/Business/first and if known fare booked) ? :
- was any upgrade proposed and if yes, to which cabin (PE, J, P) and at which moment (H-56 to H-30 in MMB, H-30 to H OLCI, airport counter) ? :
- at which price ? :


It will be also important to report if you are proposed UG at every flight or just sometimes (as today).
Have fun
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Old Sep 25, 17, 9:10 am
  #21  
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Hi,

My experience last saturday,23-sept. Managed to upgrade my flight from Prem. Eco to J from CDG-IAH. They were still using the old system as I'm used to i.e: based on purchased fare sub-class.
Paid with my miles, did not ask how much it would be if I had wanted to pay cash.

So, at least for now, nothing seem to have changed - i did not ask if there was something new coming up.

Cheers!
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Old Sep 25, 17, 3:15 pm
  #22  
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I have a medium-haul flight coming soon and I have in MMB the usual link to upgrade with miles, but nothing happened at H-56 and since that.
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Old Sep 25, 17, 8:56 pm
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Originally Posted by KL803 View Post
The MMB hasn't changed yet for my booking, asking for 80K Y to C (60K Y to W) miles for the SIN-CDG leg. I will definitely log-in at T-56 to see if there are changes.
The MMB has changed somewhat: when I click on the link to see availability for upgrades this is what appears:



Maybe a glitch or no more availability?
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Old Sep 28, 17, 5:44 am
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I flew JFK-AMS on KLM yesterday and this policy was in effect (and they explicitly told me that there was a new "formula" since Monday).

I usually fly high-fare buckets (Y/B/M) and was on a B fare yesterday. The all-cash upgrade was about 640USD (which is more expensive than usual), the next option was about 450USD and 13k miles, and the all-miles option was 45000 miles (which is much higher than the published 25k upgrade from B->J). I don't remember the numbers for the other intermediate options.

They also didn't process the upgrade immediately: I asked for it at the check-in counters, they made me an offer, and then told me it would be confirmed at the gate. The gate agents at JFK were all Delta gate agents and it seemed to be handled like a US-style upgrade process, clearing all upgrades at the very end, not first-come-first-serve. They mentioned it was prioritized by status and not fare bucket.

This makes KLM much less attractive for people in a position to buy high-fare economy tickets.
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Old Sep 28, 17, 6:41 am
  #25  
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Originally Posted by SFOAMS View Post
This makes KLM much less attractive for people in a position to buy high-fare economy tickets.
They want you to act normally - i.e. buy the cheapest-available economy ticket
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Old Sep 28, 17, 7:04 am
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Is it just me, or is the upgrade calculator down?
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Old Sep 28, 17, 8:56 am
  #27  
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Has anyone upgraded from W (or S) to J using this?
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Old Sep 28, 17, 9:10 am
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Great new system

Im aboard a KLM flight from AMS to PVG.

Tickt was booked today in N class wich is very very poor. Asked the Platinum desk via telephone about 10 hours prior to departure about an upgrade. Agent said, poor booking class, 90.000 miles (or even 95.000) to upgrade to C. Declined.

Started another try at the gate. Very nice lady was calling Ticket office and gave me 5 options:

375 EUR without miles
289 with 11.000 miles
190 with 22.500 miles
90 with 35.000 miles
0 with 45.000 miles

I choosed 45k miles. But now I think the 375 EUR upgrade is much more better. Kiosk offer upgrade to C for 1299 EUR.

Will fly back from PVG to CDG on Sunday. Booked in B. Lets see what they can offer then.

Last edited by Sketho; Sep 28, 17 at 9:16 am
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Old Sep 28, 17, 1:03 pm
  #29  
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I think the system is still not in place on the AF side.
I flew CDG-TXL this week (booked in Y). Nothing happened at H-56. At OLCI in the app there was an offer for a paid upgrade to C for €89 (which is not too bad IMO for a 2hrs flight) with 7 seats indicated as available. No possibility to pay with miles or a combination of cash and miles. Over time until close to limit check-in time, the number of C seats available for upgrade decreased to 3, but the price stayed the same at €89. I didn’t take it.
I fly back tomorrow and no upgrade is proposed and this is normal as all flights tomorrow show J0 Y0 !!
It seems that there are a lot of millenials flying tomorrow between TXL and CDG

UPDATE : looking again at the seat map for my tomorrow’s flight, a paid upgrade offer poped-up (3 seats available), but €119, while it was €89 for my inbound flight
still cash only.

Last edited by Goldorak; Sep 28, 17 at 4:03 pm
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Old Sep 28, 17, 2:44 pm
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Originally Posted by Sketho View Post
Im aboard a KLM flight from AMS to PVG.

Tickt was booked today in N class wich is very very poor. Asked the Platinum desk via telephone about 10 hours prior to departure about an upgrade. Agent said, poor booking class, 90.000 miles (or even 95.000) to upgrade to C. Declined.

Started another try at the gate. Very nice lady was calling Ticket office and gave me 5 options:

375 EUR without miles
289 with 11.000 miles
190 with 22.500 miles
90 with 35.000 miles
0 with 45.000 miles

I choosed 45k miles. But now I think the 375 EUR upgrade is much more better. Kiosk offer upgrade to C for 1299 EUR.

Will fly back from PVG to CDG on Sunday. Booked in B. Lets see what they can offer then.
You are right 375 is VERY nice for a N class ticket. Good to know that there are some good deals to get, I will probably ask at the gate more often since I usually travel in low bucket fares.
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