JOUY31

I guess that when the stakes are this high, I tend to disregard whose fault it ultimately is (in this case, 99% the pilots) and focus on how this "train wreck" could possibly be averted. There is no urgency in implementing this piece of legislation, which, in any case, will be enacted at the European level in a few months' time. The end result is that we get the worst of both worlds : the cost of the strike and no savings at the national level for the pension funds. This, and I acknowledge that it is a very personal opinion, (having written off the pilots and their lack of sense of responsibility !) is specifically what I find disappointing in terms of statesmanship from the lawmakers.

San Gottardo

Anyone knows what the situation is in terms of delay today? Are those flights that operate leaving/arrving more or less on time, or are there severe ripple-through effects?

Armchair Flyer

JOUY31 I agree with you, economies are in a bad shape all round, the airline industry can little afford costly industrial action and we should always be looking to avoid these kinds of situations rather than provoke them.

However, I firmly believe that we will have a strike either now (with the legislation being passed in France) or later (once the legislation is passed at EU level). I can't see the difference ~ either pain now or pain later. To me it's 100% going to happen either way and it's 100% unavoidable.

To my mind that's because this is France where there is a breed of egoiste people intent to look out for the greater good of themselves rather than the greater good of the whole, sad as it is to have to make that remark beacuse I love it here. To my mind it's rather like AlItalia ~ with the company staring liquidation in the face only 3 or 4 of the 10 or so Unions have accepted the last ditch last minute last chance rescue plan. Crazy. So clearly, those who haven't accepted the plan judge that they are better off not having a job than turning up to work each day to earn an honest €?

Some people refuse to see sense because they feel they are a case apart when they should be grateful for the not inconsiderable salaries, benefits and perks they have in relation to what their employer expects of them. That mentality is infested in many industries in France. Some organisations I know of have established an approach to tackle that kind of mentality and have adopted the attitude "We will make people who are determined to be made redundant, redundant".

Perhaps, then, with the airline industry and the global economy is such poor shape, the result of this irresponsibility will (unfortunately for everyone) be the end of employment for some of those who have embarked on this meaningless exercise.

stimpy

I'm sorry, but that is total BS. Egoism is a human trait. Not a French one. In fact, a heck of a lot of people around the world are jealous of the state benefits in France. The problem is not one of breeding.

Armchair Flyer

Egoism manifests itself here more than in most other European countries. There is no temperance; if you're work is allied to the State in France, being egoiste seems to be adopted as a right, not taken as a human trait.

San Gottardo

OK, let's replace "egoism" (which I don't see either as a special French trait of character) with "reluctance to work". That is a French trait. Which also explains why France is among those countries that still hasn't managed to reform its social system. Try any little thing - change train conductors' weekly work pattern, give pilots the possibility to work longer - and you have a strike. Insane.

stimpy

Sorry, but that is still wrong. You can look at almost any country in the world, including places like Germany and Switzerland, and find state employees who jealously guard their benefits. There is clearly a systemic problem in France, and issues of weak political will. But it has absolutely nothing with breeding or being French. Also, French people work VERY hard in general. They are out there in the fields picking grapes, they are building roads, managing trains, working in IT, etc., etc. France is a highly productive European country. *Some* state employees can be lazy, but you find that in every country. Some state employees, like doctors and nurses at state operated hospitals in France, work very, very hard, 24 x 7, saving lives and providing medical care to everyone who walks through the hospital doors, French or otherwise.

Armchair Flyer

Train drivers are still paid a "prime" here for stoking coal although steam trains were removed almost 50 years ago. Try taking away the prime: strike.

Same kind of thing with the AF pilots. Give a dog a bone and when you try and take it away you get bitten.

Armchair Flyer

So having a 35 hour working week that is strictly enforced is "working very hard in general"?? You've completely lost me there.

stimpy

Um, it's not strictly enforced across France. Not even a little bit. Ask a hospital worker about the 35 hour week sometime.

Harry IAH

justchris - are you also flying from IAH on the 26th? If so, I think you should avoid travel and let me have your L'Espace seat

Would be nice if the load drops - then more room to stretch out on the cramped 3-4-3 ... thos of us in steerage would appreciate it.

Gnopps

Info from AF:

Malonda

I have tried to compile a list of all cancelled long haul flights for tomorrow Sat. NOV 15; I will endeavor to update it as much as possible, if necessary:

15 NOV - FROM PARIS (CDG/ORY)

08:25 CDG JFK AF 22
08:50 CDG BEY AF 566
10:15 CDG IAH AF 36
10:20 CDG TNR AF 908
10:30 CDG NRT AF 272
10:30 CDG SEA AF 40
10:30 CDG FIH AF 898
10:30 CDG JNB AF 994
10:40 CDG SXM AF 488
10:45 CDG DTW AF 374
10:45 CDG BLR AF 192
13:15 CDG DXB AF 526
13:15 CDG ORD AF 50
13:15 CDG LAX AF 72
13:15 CDG YUL AF 344
13:35 CDG MEX AF 438
15:55 CDG PVG AF 112
16:30 CDG JFK AF 10
16:35 CDG DKR AF 718
16:40 CDG CAI AF 524
16:40 CDG IAD AF 26

16:10 ORY FDF AF 656

15 NOV - TO PARIS

JFK CDG AF 11
JFK CDG AF 23
IAD CDG AF 27
IAH CDG AF 33
YUL CDG AF 345
DTW CDG AF 373
SEA CDG AF 41
MEX CDG AF 439
SXM CDG AF 489
ORD CDG AF 51
BEY CDG AF 565
FDF ORY AF 657
LAX CDG AF 69
DKR CDG AF 719
FIH CDG AF 899
BOM CDG AF 135
CAN CDG AF 105
DXB CDG AF 525
ICN CDG AF 267
JNB CDG AF 997
KIX CDG AF 291
NRT CDG AF 271
NRT CDG AF 277
PEK CDG AF129
PVG CDG AF 117
RUN ORY AF 679

16 NOV - TO PARIS

PVG CDG AF 117
BLR CDG AF 191
NRT CDG AF 271
CAI CDG AF 503
DXB CDG AF 525
TNR CDG AF 905
JNB CDG AF 997

justchris82

No, flying LAX-CDG-LHR. But in Tempo

San Gottardo

It may be a somewhat generalist statement, but I believe it's fair to say that France is not the country that springs to one's mind when thinking about engaged and labourous employees.

I know no other country in the world where employee rights are so sacred and where every little change is met with a strike. Sure, it's much more complex than that (the role of the unions, there are some people working very hard, dedicated to their job and their customers, etc.), but as a general pattern you must admit that the phenomenon of people devoting themselves to their work is not very widespread in big French companies or the public sector.

Take Air France as an example to illustrate that attitude: if you fly with them on shorthaul Business (70 minute flight, 700 EUR oneway) you get served plastified dogfoot and no wardrobe. That is not because there wouldn't be a wardrobe - there is one, but it's for the FAs - or no possibility to prepare proper meals - there is, and they shamelessly prepare hot three course meals for the crew before handing out that plastic insult to your tastebuds.

When I remarked that to an FA recently she didn't understand why I'd be surprised that the crew gets served first and better and that employees have better treatment and priviliges than premium customers. She just didn't grasp the idea. She explained to me that the poor crew was served the much better catering because they were in the air during meal time - but she didn't understand my argument of being on my third flight that day, each one of them at meal times.

I mean, did anyone ever see a hotel where the suites are occupied by the employees and guests get sent to the staff quarters? If you have, this must have been in France.

There is a certain arrogance behind such an attitude, where companies exist for the benefit of employees, customers are accepted as a necessary means to provide the funding of these benefits. And as soon as those benefits are threatened, they refuse to work. Very very poor attitude.