Self-upgrading Okay for Kids?
Mar 8, 2018, 4:48 pm
#46
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MEX
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They may well do, but the original post contained the question about one child. If we want to discuss some of the confusing derivatives on offer from other members, perhaps that should occur in a separate thread. But it's a bit strange to disagree with my opinion about one 6 year old boy by advocating against spouses, grandma and emotional support hedgehogs.
I agree with the slippery slope argument others have put forth, like:
No, the example in the OP was one child.
This discussion understands that example but also extends the self-upgrading behaviour to those who may consider doing so in the future and for me, that is a key issue. I also think Air Canada does not have a clearly defined enforcement policy because based on posts on this forum, some cabin crew do not seem to want to enforce the rules or seem intimidated by pax who do what they want and thus the cabin crew choose to avoid confrontation.
This discussion understands that example but also extends the self-upgrading behaviour to those who may consider doing so in the future and for me, that is a key issue. I also think Air Canada does not have a clearly defined enforcement policy because based on posts on this forum, some cabin crew do not seem to want to enforce the rules or seem intimidated by pax who do what they want and thus the cabin crew choose to avoid confrontation.
Mar 8, 2018, 5:05 pm
#47
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Israel/United States
Posts: 1,234
Its not mean. As said, using something you didn't pay for is stealing. Why would it NOT be okay for a spouse or parent to self upgrade, but because it is a child it is okay. Sorry, self upgrading is self upgrading. It either becomes a free for all ( who can first grab the empty seat(s) --or no one self upgrades!
Mar 8, 2018, 5:11 pm
#48
Join Date: Jul 2009
Programs: none
Posts: 1,668
How to stop this pointless back-and-forth banter:
Just ask the Service Director, "Hi, name is ___ and I'm important because (insert justification here). Is it OK that my son/daughter comes up here and takes a vacant seat?"
If SD says Yes, you're OK. No one gets hurt.
If SD says No, no one dies.
The beauty of this approach is that as long as you can show how it's in their best interest to grant you request, you can ask for any favor you want.
Just ask the Service Director, "Hi, name is ___ and I'm important because (insert justification here). Is it OK that my son/daughter comes up here and takes a vacant seat?"
If SD says Yes, you're OK. No one gets hurt.
If SD says No, no one dies.
The beauty of this approach is that as long as you can show how it's in their best interest to grant you request, you can ask for any favor you want.
Last edited by Allan38103; Mar 8, 2018 at 6:50 pm
Mar 8, 2018, 5:36 pm
#50
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 411
One wonders what possible effect a well-behaved child would have on the inner sanctum of AC's opulent J. I understand the opposition to an adult companion moving forward, but to a 6yr old child?
There's rules, and there should also be latitude for discretionary judgements.
There's rules, and there should also be latitude for discretionary judgements.
Mar 8, 2018, 5:42 pm
#51
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: YYZ
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If Dad knows that there's a good chance he'll be able to bring the child up to J for free, then there's no incentive for him to ever pay for J for the child. To contrast - if he knows that there is no chance he'll be able to initiate that cabin move (AC may decide to move people to a new cabin for a variety of reasons, but it's not under Dad's control) then now there is an incentive for him to pay for J for the child.
Mar 8, 2018, 5:53 pm
#52
Join Date: Dec 2011
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Posts: 3,167
I'm not talking about rules, and I'm not talking about the expectation of an upgrade -- everyone should pay to sit in the seat they want to sit in, regardless of which cabin that seat happens to be in. Heck, I'm not even talking about the kid who went to sit up front with his dad. I think you missed the point of my post.
All I'm saying is that the use of an empty seat hardly constitutes "stealing." Stealing involves taking something of value from somebody, and as AC has absolutely no method of monetizing that empty seat, you're not damaging them in a dollars and cents kind of way. That's all.
You seem to be focusing on the definition of stealing, and relying on the fact that (in your words) it's only stealing if you "taking something from somebody" - but the dictionary definition is "take without permission or legal right", and that does fit the case here.
I agree that "stealing" is a harsh word, but that's what it is.
Mar 8, 2018, 5:56 pm
#53
Join Date: Jan 2016
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Posts: 5,612
Let’s just say for a moment that the SD had said sure fine... Then the adult is going to keep trying it again and again, how can AC sell seats if they’re being given away?
I mean by this point it was empty, but I think my point is obvious.
I mean by this point it was empty, but I think my point is obvious.
Mar 8, 2018, 6:02 pm
#54
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It is and I used it upthread because that is how I see what the dad did when he put his child in the empty seat.
Apologies to everyone who thinks the word stealing was too harsh, but then that is exactly how I see what the dad did.
My issue is really with what appears to be the lack of clear rules between AC and the crews, or perhaps, the rules are there but the cabin crew prefer not to have any unpleasant or aggressive encounters with pax and thus do the avoidance thing.
Apologies to everyone who thinks the word stealing was too harsh, but then that is exactly how I see what the dad did.
My issue is really with what appears to be the lack of clear rules between AC and the crews, or perhaps, the rules are there but the cabin crew prefer not to have any unpleasant or aggressive encounters with pax and thus do the avoidance thing.
Mar 8, 2018, 6:05 pm
#55
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Mar 8, 2018, 6:06 pm
#56
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: YVR
Programs: Bottom feeder Star Gold
Posts: 2,652
Because future flights are very relevant here. Behavior on one flight sets a precedent (at least in people's minds) for subsequent flights, that's the whole point.
If Dad knows that there's a good chance he'll be able to bring the child up to J for free, then there's no incentive for him to ever pay for J for the child. To contrast - if he knows that there is no chance he'll be able to initiate that cabin move (AC may decide to move people to a new cabin for a variety of reasons, but it's not under Dad's control) then now there is an incentive for him to pay for J for the child.
If Dad knows that there's a good chance he'll be able to bring the child up to J for free, then there's no incentive for him to ever pay for J for the child. To contrast - if he knows that there is no chance he'll be able to initiate that cabin move (AC may decide to move people to a new cabin for a variety of reasons, but it's not under Dad's control) then now there is an incentive for him to pay for J for the child.
We have no idea if the child was flying with a third person in economy, nor what Dad's motivation was in flying in separate cabins. Was the son tagging along on a business trip? Was it a personal family trip? Did somebody else (an employer/client) pay the J fare? To pontificate about precedent and what might happen in future is a bit of a stretch to say the least.
I'm convinced peoples' negative opinions have more to do with their perceived loss of exclusivity rather than an abundance of concern about Air Canada's revenue.
Originally Posted by jc94
Let’s just say for a moment that the SD had said sure fine... Then the adult is going to keep trying it again and again, how can AC sell seats if they’re being given away?
I mean by this point it was empty, but I think my point is obvious.
I mean by this point it was empty, but I think my point is obvious.
Last edited by CZAMFlyer; Mar 8, 2018 at 6:12 pm
Mar 8, 2018, 6:24 pm
#57
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I was replying to 24left's comments about moving the child up being considered theft, no matter if the person is 2 or 92 years old.
I doubt it. Dad likely saw there was a number of empty seats and brought the kid up. By the time that happened mid-flight, the loss of revenue to the airline was exactly nil. And we've also established that ancillary meal costs were not incurred. What exactly was 'stolen' here: space?
We have no idea if the child was flying with a third person in economy, nor what Dad's motivation was in flying in separate cabins. Was the son tagging along on a business trip? Was it a personal family trip? Did somebody else (an employer/client) pay the J fare? To pontificate about precedent and what might happen in future is a bit of a stretch to say the least.
I'm convinced peoples' negative opinions have more to do with their perceived loss of exclusivity rather than an abundance of concern about Air Canada's revenue.
How can any airline sell seats on an airplane that is airborne?
I doubt it. Dad likely saw there was a number of empty seats and brought the kid up. By the time that happened mid-flight, the loss of revenue to the airline was exactly nil. And we've also established that ancillary meal costs were not incurred. What exactly was 'stolen' here: space?
We have no idea if the child was flying with a third person in economy, nor what Dad's motivation was in flying in separate cabins. Was the son tagging along on a business trip? Was it a personal family trip? Did somebody else (an employer/client) pay the J fare? To pontificate about precedent and what might happen in future is a bit of a stretch to say the least.
I'm convinced peoples' negative opinions have more to do with their perceived loss of exclusivity rather than an abundance of concern about Air Canada's revenue.
How can any airline sell seats on an airplane that is airborne?
If the father's employer was paying for his J ticket, the father still could have purchased a J ticket for the boy. Problem solved. It doesn't matter whether it was a business trip or personal travel.Dad can buy the kid a ticket for the seat he wants his son to occupy.
Mar 8, 2018, 6:29 pm
#58
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I explained it upthread - same device that crew use to purchase BoB. Someone else posted examples of one or more U.S. airlines who do that or have done that.
And exclusivity is one of the things Air Canada is trying to sell in the premium cabins.
And exclusivity is one of the things Air Canada is trying to sell in the premium cabins.
Mar 8, 2018, 6:45 pm
#59
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,156
On my last WS flight, the FA did exactly that on two self-upgrading passengers to the PLUS seats. Surprisingly, they pulled out their credit cards and complied. WS has a fixed price for this type of upgrade, so it's easier to manage. I think that they were treated as airport buy-up.
Mar 8, 2018, 6:52 pm
#60
Join Date: Aug 2008
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The fact the seat is empty and unsold is a straw man argument. Perhaps I will buy an economy seat on LH and then saunter up to the first class cabin and tell them since the several seats are empty, surely they won't mind if I sit in one and enjoy the flight. Don't worry ..I won't ask for food or drink.