Self-upgrading Okay for Kids?
Mar 11, 2018, 10:38 pm
#121
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: YVR
Programs: Bottom feeder Star Gold
Posts: 2,652
Originally Posted by Adam Smith
Obviously one kid sitting in J on one flight doesn't mean that the next day every empty J seat is going to be filled with a self-upgrader, but...without one, over time, that would ultimately be the outcome.
Originally Posted by Adam Smith
...the reason a policy needs to be in place...
I have written upthread that I think the SD's decision in this case was a good one (yet would not have opposed the kid staying up front). I believe there is room for discretion and approaching scenarios on a case-by-case basis, within airlines and in most other lines of business. It's clear most people here prefer hard & fast, black & white no-nonsense policies. Personally, I think life would be dreadful if we had to live like that. Spend some time thinking about how many times with Air Canada you have received a small - or large - perk without actually being entitled to it, or having paid for it. Maybe it was an op-up, or an extra meal, or going home with a bottle of booze from the cabin crew, or a hotel voucher or a tour of an operational centre off-limits to the public. Without some level of discretion, that could not have occurred.
So to answer the question posed by the thread title, my answer is: "once in a while - why not?"
Especially if Ackbar or proudelitist were sitting across the aisle.
Mar 11, 2018, 10:38 pm
#122
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Join Date: Sep 2012
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I think its pretty simple. Don't let it happen regardless of age. Why? Well that seat could have gone to someone that was waiting for an upgrade. Perfect example was 2 days ago SFO-YVR. I had a confirmed upgrade on a lat fare and my colleague who waited too long and was waitlisted. At the gate he was told J Class was full. Before the door was closed and boarding seemed complete, my friend went and asked the SD about the 2 empty J Class seats. SD said that sorry but it's too late to do an upgrade and they were going to close the doors soon. My friend and another passenger also waiting for their upgrade were not impressed. I don't know about the other passenger but my friend is a 2 MM and flies over 200K/year with AC. The doors eventually closed and we left with 2 empty J Seats. First, I don't know how this could happen and they couldn't check the upgrade list. Second, if I saw someone self upgrade themselves to either of these seats regardless of age, I'd be incredibly pissed. I've seen when seats have opened up[ because of no shows right before departure and they've actually went to the back to bring waitlisted upgrades up to the front but never this.
Mar 11, 2018, 11:02 pm
#123
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: YEG
Programs: AC Lifetime SE100K, 3MM, SPG Lifetime Plat, Hertz PC, National Executive Elite
Posts: 2,901
Sigh. Yet again, rather than understand that mine was a question of nuance, here we have another person arguing against a scenario (a complete lack of self-upgrade enforcement) that nobody has suggested. I envision people breathlessly advancing their points of view against a closed door, only to open it and find there was never anybody standing behind it.
There IS a policy in place that disallows self-upgrading passengers and I have been clear that I'm in favour of it. At no time did I suggest that cabin crew always turn a blind eye or never enforce the policy.
I have written upthread that I think the SD's decision in this case was a good one (yet would not have opposed the kid staying up front). I believe there is room for discretion and approaching scenarios on a case-by-case basis, within airlines and in most other lines of business. It's clear most people here prefer hard & fast, black & white no-nonsense policies. Personally, I think life would be dreadful if we had to live like that. Spend some time thinking about how many times with Air Canada you have received a small - or large - perk without actually being entitled to it, or having paid for it. Maybe it was an op-up, or an extra meal, or going home with a bottle of booze from the cabin crew, or a hotel voucher or a tour of an operational centre off-limits to the public. Without some level of discretion, that could not have occurred.
So to answer the question posed by the thread title, my answer is: "once in a while - why not?"
Especially if Ackbar or proudelitist were sitting across the aisle.
There IS a policy in place that disallows self-upgrading passengers and I have been clear that I'm in favour of it. At no time did I suggest that cabin crew always turn a blind eye or never enforce the policy.
I have written upthread that I think the SD's decision in this case was a good one (yet would not have opposed the kid staying up front). I believe there is room for discretion and approaching scenarios on a case-by-case basis, within airlines and in most other lines of business. It's clear most people here prefer hard & fast, black & white no-nonsense policies. Personally, I think life would be dreadful if we had to live like that. Spend some time thinking about how many times with Air Canada you have received a small - or large - perk without actually being entitled to it, or having paid for it. Maybe it was an op-up, or an extra meal, or going home with a bottle of booze from the cabin crew, or a hotel voucher or a tour of an operational centre off-limits to the public. Without some level of discretion, that could not have occurred.
So to answer the question posed by the thread title, my answer is: "once in a while - why not?"
Especially if Ackbar or proudelitist were sitting across the aisle.
Mar 12, 2018, 12:27 am
#124
Join Date: May 2016
Programs: EK Gold, TK Elite, Marriott Rewards, Global Entry, MileagePlus
Posts: 264
No. If the father had asked the SD if his son could come up to J and the answer was yes, then fine. AC is a business and they are free to do what they think is best. Then all passengers will behave accordingly once we know that AC will allow it, sometimes, based on their judgment. If you want a guaranteed J seat you pay for it, and if not you can buy in Y and ask and take a chance the answer will be no.
The problem is that the father did it without asking.
If I go to a restaurant and I need to pay a surcharge to get the salad buffet, and let's say I pay and eat the salad. Another customer next to me does not pay, but asks the restaurant owner if he can have something from the buffet and the answer is yes, then who am I to complain? Perhaps there are several circumstances leading to the owner's decision that I am not even aware of. But if the chap next to me goes to the buffet and starts eating without permission, that is something else.
I like Adam Smith's analogy is sneaking into a movie theater to watch a film without paying, even if the film has started already. No harm done because the seat was not occupied, right? I am sorry, but in my book that is not right. Of course if you ask staff if you can go in for free because the film has already started and they let you in, then fine.
Not completely related, but I remember one time I was on a short flight and unusually the aircraft had the lie flat beds in J and more than 75% of J seats were empty. We were delayed at the gate and expected to have to stay there for at least one hour due to bad weather at destination with all flights grounded. We were still on the ground and expected to remain there for quite a while, so I asked the SD if I could pay cash to upgrade to J, or use eupgrade credits to upgrade. I just did not want to sit in Y for a few hours at the gate waiting for departure. The SD explained to me that it was unfortunately not possible. Fine. Different situation, different flight, different staff, different passengers, etc, but if someone cannot upgrade on board while stuck at the gate despite offering to pay cash for a J seat, but someone can self-upgrade without permission mid flight? It's easy to see the issue here. As I said, if AC allowed self-upgrading without permission but refusing my offer to pay cash for an upgrade, they are free to manage their business this way, but then as a customer I would be free to fly with another airline if that was the case.
The problem is that the father did it without asking.
If I go to a restaurant and I need to pay a surcharge to get the salad buffet, and let's say I pay and eat the salad. Another customer next to me does not pay, but asks the restaurant owner if he can have something from the buffet and the answer is yes, then who am I to complain? Perhaps there are several circumstances leading to the owner's decision that I am not even aware of. But if the chap next to me goes to the buffet and starts eating without permission, that is something else.
I like Adam Smith's analogy is sneaking into a movie theater to watch a film without paying, even if the film has started already. No harm done because the seat was not occupied, right? I am sorry, but in my book that is not right. Of course if you ask staff if you can go in for free because the film has already started and they let you in, then fine.
Not completely related, but I remember one time I was on a short flight and unusually the aircraft had the lie flat beds in J and more than 75% of J seats were empty. We were delayed at the gate and expected to have to stay there for at least one hour due to bad weather at destination with all flights grounded. We were still on the ground and expected to remain there for quite a while, so I asked the SD if I could pay cash to upgrade to J, or use eupgrade credits to upgrade. I just did not want to sit in Y for a few hours at the gate waiting for departure. The SD explained to me that it was unfortunately not possible. Fine. Different situation, different flight, different staff, different passengers, etc, but if someone cannot upgrade on board while stuck at the gate despite offering to pay cash for a J seat, but someone can self-upgrade without permission mid flight? It's easy to see the issue here. As I said, if AC allowed self-upgrading without permission but refusing my offer to pay cash for an upgrade, they are free to manage their business this way, but then as a customer I would be free to fly with another airline if that was the case.
Mar 12, 2018, 7:34 am
#125
Formerly known as newbie elite
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: YUL
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Posts: 2,928
I so wish the block function would also work for quotes. Since I have been called out by name I will just say that I had you pegged rightly as a 'can't we all get along and sing Kumbaya in the sea of grey until someone disagrees with me' Then you are pretty black and white. You would fit in perfectly on today's university campuses.
Mar 12, 2018, 10:03 am
#126
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: YVR
Programs: Bottom feeder Star Gold
Posts: 2,652
Admiral, if you place one hundred people in a room, you're bound to hear one hundred different views on a given subject. It's a given in life, as it is on this board, that there are people who disagree with my opinion. Which is perfectly ok, as mine or theirs is no less valid than each other's.
I have never protested that somebody has an opposing view than mine; I have merely asked why that view is in place. Some people have given well-constructed reasons and enabled me to examine a differing perspective. Others have come back with Swiss cheese logic and/or argued points that weren't raised.
I consider "I am revolted by children" and "I strongly dislike children" as rather narrow and unnecessary comments. Not only does it have little to do with the theme of the thread, but it also betrays an unhappiness in general. I don't have kids, and yes, sometimes I encounter little hellions that are horrible little creatures, but to paint all children in one group - to be so black and white - leaves little room for the small surprises that may actually brighten one's day.
Now, if you'll pick up your guitar, turn to page eleven, and strum with me...
I have never protested that somebody has an opposing view than mine; I have merely asked why that view is in place. Some people have given well-constructed reasons and enabled me to examine a differing perspective. Others have come back with Swiss cheese logic and/or argued points that weren't raised.
I consider "I am revolted by children" and "I strongly dislike children" as rather narrow and unnecessary comments. Not only does it have little to do with the theme of the thread, but it also betrays an unhappiness in general. I don't have kids, and yes, sometimes I encounter little hellions that are horrible little creatures, but to paint all children in one group - to be so black and white - leaves little room for the small surprises that may actually brighten one's day.
Now, if you'll pick up your guitar, turn to page eleven, and strum with me...
Mar 12, 2018, 10:39 am
#127
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: YQB
Programs: AC SE
Posts: 2,139
Let's flip this around for those who say going from Y->J is not OK but going from J->Y is fine.
If I were sitting in Y and had an empty seat next to me, I'd be really pissed if someone from J came and sat in that seat. Having a seatmate in Y degrades my experience much more badly than having one in J. That being said, at the end of the day, I am only entitled to the seat I booked and paid for. Stay in your ticketed class, or feel free to visit for a short period of time. I just can't help being irritated by those J-flyers who treat the Y cabin as a dumpster for all the unpleasantness (real or imagined) they are confronted with when flying.
If I were sitting in Y and had an empty seat next to me, I'd be really pissed if someone from J came and sat in that seat. Having a seatmate in Y degrades my experience much more badly than having one in J. That being said, at the end of the day, I am only entitled to the seat I booked and paid for. Stay in your ticketed class, or feel free to visit for a short period of time. I just can't help being irritated by those J-flyers who treat the Y cabin as a dumpster for all the unpleasantness (real or imagined) they are confronted with when flying.
Mar 12, 2018, 10:40 am
#128
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: YYC
Posts: 23,805
Let's flip this around for those who say going from Y->J is not OK but going from J->Y is fine.
If I were sitting in Y and had an empty seat next to me, I'd be really pissed if someone from J came and sat in that seat. Having a seatmate in Y degrades my experience much more badly than having one in J. That being said, at the end of the day, I am only entitled to the seat I booked and paid for. Stay in your ticketed class, or feel free to visit for a short period of time. I just can't help being irritated by those J-flyers who treat the Y cabin as a dumpster for all the unpleasantness (real or imagined) they are confronted with when flying.
If I were sitting in Y and had an empty seat next to me, I'd be really pissed if someone from J came and sat in that seat. Having a seatmate in Y degrades my experience much more badly than having one in J. That being said, at the end of the day, I am only entitled to the seat I booked and paid for. Stay in your ticketed class, or feel free to visit for a short period of time. I just can't help being irritated by those J-flyers who treat the Y cabin as a dumpster for all the unpleasantness (real or imagined) they are confronted with when flying.
Mar 12, 2018, 2:58 pm
#129
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: YYC / random hotel in YYZ
Programs: Back of the bus
Posts: 922
Then I'm a 1%er too. I paid significantly more for a seat in Y and would rather not be interrupted by someone's kid who is up there for free. What level of entitlement does someone need to have to bring their children into the forward cabin without paying the fare? The true "dick" in this case is the parent.
Just saying everyone thinks I'm a dick because I speak my mind. HAH!
Mar 12, 2018, 4:54 pm
#130
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,808
This whole thing hinges on the assumption that a child somehow constitutes an exemption to rules. This is the assumption that motivates most self-entitled parents when it comes to imposing on solo travelers, or even adult couples. The entitlement that once caused a woman to snip at me for smoking and swearing near her child...in a bar at 1 am..the entitlement that caused one man to ask me to vacate my F seat for his 13 year old daughter who didn't clear the upgrade. When I advised him to ask the person sitting next to his daughter to come up to F instead his only response was shock that I would separate a parent from a child..
The rules are the rules. People...of ANY age, simply cannot come forward and sit in J if they are on a Y ticket. I don't care if that person is 4 ft tall and weighs 60 pounds, or 6 ft tall and weighs 210 pounds. There was another parent back there with the child.
The rules are the rules. People...of ANY age, simply cannot come forward and sit in J if they are on a Y ticket. I don't care if that person is 4 ft tall and weighs 60 pounds, or 6 ft tall and weighs 210 pounds. There was another parent back there with the child.
Mar 13, 2018, 12:11 pm
#132
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC E75K, NEXUS/GE
Posts: 31
My wife and kids flew TPAC last year in Economy. When I joined them for the tail end of summer vacation, we flew back with me in Premium Economy (Aeroplan award ticket) and they were one row behind me in Economy+.
With one seat empty beside me, never would I have considered that it was okay to bring one of my kids up into a cabin which I had not paid for them to be in. If everyone did this, or were allowed to do this, then what's stopping everyonefrom just paying Economy fare, and hoping they can sneak up front once the plane leaves the ground?
I switched seats with my wife, let her have my seat, and sat with my kids for 14 and a half hours.
With one seat empty beside me, never would I have considered that it was okay to bring one of my kids up into a cabin which I had not paid for them to be in. If everyone did this, or were allowed to do this, then what's stopping everyonefrom just paying Economy fare, and hoping they can sneak up front once the plane leaves the ground?
I switched seats with my wife, let her have my seat, and sat with my kids for 14 and a half hours.