Nov 1, 2014, 10:31 am
Last edit by: mendy7511
Important updates to Air Canada Altitude in 2015 23 October
This afternoon, we will be announcing changes to certain elements of Air Canada Altitude in 2015, as well as new features to the program.
Minimum Air Canada Flight Requirement
The Minimum Air Canada Flight Requirement to reach Altitude status for 2016 is increasing. To qualify for Altitude status in 2016, the following Minimum Air Canada Flight Requirement will need to be met:
Prestige 25K: 12,500 AQM /12 AQS
Elite 35K: 17,500 AQM /17 AQS
Elite 50K: 25,000 AQM /25 AQS
Elite 75K: 37,500 AQM / 37 AQS
Super Elite 100K: 50,000 AQM / 47 AQS
The new MFR will not impact qualification for Altitude 2015.
500 Mile Minimum
For travel as of March 1, 2015, mileage accrual will no longer be rounded up to a 500 Mile minimum. Miles earned will be based on the distance flown and the fare option purchased for flights operated by Air Canada, Air Canada Express, Air Canada rouge and Star Alliance member airlines.
eUpgrades to Business Class
For eUpgrade requests made on or after March 1, 2015, the number of eUpgrade Credits required to upgrade is increasing. The number of eUpgrade Credits you can earn through the Threshold eUpgrades program is also changing. These changes were made following a thorough benchmarking of the upgrades practices of other major international airlines who often limit international upgrades solely to their highest membership tier, and often severely limit the number of upgrades a member may request over the course of a year.
We will also be expanding the high Flex eligibility category to include the U and H booking classes on the Domestic, Transborder and Sun markets, as well as the U booking class on International markets. The inclusion of these booking classes within the higher Flex eligibility category actually decreases the number of credits required to upgrade flights on certain markets when compared to 2014.
For eUpgrade credit requirements as of March 1, 2015, visit: http://www.aircanada.com/en/aeroplan...e/updates.html
eUpgrades to Premium Economy
In early 2015, you will be able to access the comfort of Premium Economy using eUpgrade Credits, when upgrading from an eligible fare. eUpgrade Add-ons will not apply for these upgrades.
eUpgrade Nominees
Beginning March 1, 2015, Altitude Super Elite 100K members will be entitled to share their eUpgrade privileges with one eUpgrade Nominee. Members will maintain their ability to share their eUpgrade privileges with Travel Companions.
Priority Boarding
In early 2015, a new streamlined boarding process will be introduced to ensure that you get even more out of the Priority Boarding privilege.
Complimentary access to International Maple Leaf Lounges and Star Alliance Business Lounges
As lounge occupancy grows, many of our lounges are at capacity levels. And while we continue to invest in many lounge expansion projects, the reality is that in many locations, additional space is simply not available. At the same time, benchmarking shows us that our eligibility polices are still over-indexed as compared to many of our competitors. In particular, access to lounges is not a privilege offered by most international airlines at the 35,000 qualifying miles level. We have therefore modified our policy whereby Elite 35K members will continue to have access to Maple Leaf Lounges located in the domestic and trans-border departure zones, as well as those in Los Angeles and New York (LaGuardia). However access to International Maple Leaf Lounges or Star Alliance Business lounges will no longer be available as a Select Privilege. Instead, an option to purchase a Maple Leaf Club membership will be introduced with a 50% discount.
Priority Rewards
In order to maintain the integrity of the Priority Reward privilege for eligible Altitude members, Priority Rewards will be limited to ten (10) reservations (with up to 9 passengers each) per member per benefit period, beginning March 1, 2015. While a thorough analysis has indicated that this change will not impact the vast majority of members (over 95%), it will allow us to maintain a benefit which we know is widely appreciated.
Flight Rewards for Premium Economy
In early 2015, you will be able to redeem Aeroplan miles for seats in the Premium Economy cabin on Air Canada. Details will be coming soon.
Fuel Surcharge on Flight Rewards & Flight Reward change fee waivers
For reservations made as of March 1, 2015, the fuel surcharges on ClassicFlight rewards for travel within Canada and between Canada and the U.S. will be waived for all Altitude members (ie. 25K and higher) . This is applicable on flights operated by Air Canada, Air Canada Express and Air Canada rouge.
At the same time, Aeroplan Flight Reward change fee waivers for Super Elite 100K members will no longer be available for changes made on or after March 1, 2015. However, the fuel surcharges on ClassicFlight Rewards for travel between Canada and international destinations will be waived for Super Elite 100K members on flights operated by Air Canada, Air Canada Express and Air Canada rouge.
For a complete list of details regarding these changes, visit http://www.aircanada.com/en/aeroplan...e/updates.html
New REVISED REVISIONS to the Altitude Program (Oct 31 email)
=============
Last week, changes to Air Canada Altitude for 2015 were announced. As always, weve been listening to your feedback and will be adjusting certain elements of the program accordingly.
Threshold eUpgrades
The amount of eUpgrade Credits offered through the Threshold eUpgrade program will increase. As of 100,000 Altitude Qualifying Miles or 100 Altitude Qualifying Segments, 20 eUpgrade Credits will be awarded for every 40,000 AQM or 40 AQS flown.
eUpgrade Validity Date
eUpgrade Credits earned on or after November 7, 2014 will be valid until February 29, 2016.
Additionally, eUpgrade Credits earned on or after November 1, 2015 will be valid until February 28, 2017.
Mile Minimum
For travel from March 1, 2015 onwards, all Altitude members will earn a minimum of 250 miles on flights operated by Air Canada, Air Canada Express and Air Canada rouge as well as Star Alliance member airlines.
Minimum Air Canada Flight Requirement
For non-Canadian residents, the Minimum Air Canada Flight Requirement needed to reach Altitude status in 2016 will be 50% lower than the recently published Minimum Air Canada Flight Requirement.
These changes are representative of Air Canadas focus on recognizing our most valued and important members. We remain committed to offering you one of the best frequent flyer programs in the industry.
Air Canada
This afternoon, we will be announcing changes to certain elements of Air Canada Altitude in 2015, as well as new features to the program.
Minimum Air Canada Flight Requirement
The Minimum Air Canada Flight Requirement to reach Altitude status for 2016 is increasing. To qualify for Altitude status in 2016, the following Minimum Air Canada Flight Requirement will need to be met:
Prestige 25K: 12,500 AQM /12 AQS
Elite 35K: 17,500 AQM /17 AQS
Elite 50K: 25,000 AQM /25 AQS
Elite 75K: 37,500 AQM / 37 AQS
Super Elite 100K: 50,000 AQM / 47 AQS
The new MFR will not impact qualification for Altitude 2015.
500 Mile Minimum
For travel as of March 1, 2015, mileage accrual will no longer be rounded up to a 500 Mile minimum. Miles earned will be based on the distance flown and the fare option purchased for flights operated by Air Canada, Air Canada Express, Air Canada rouge and Star Alliance member airlines.
eUpgrades to Business Class
For eUpgrade requests made on or after March 1, 2015, the number of eUpgrade Credits required to upgrade is increasing. The number of eUpgrade Credits you can earn through the Threshold eUpgrades program is also changing. These changes were made following a thorough benchmarking of the upgrades practices of other major international airlines who often limit international upgrades solely to their highest membership tier, and often severely limit the number of upgrades a member may request over the course of a year.
We will also be expanding the high Flex eligibility category to include the U and H booking classes on the Domestic, Transborder and Sun markets, as well as the U booking class on International markets. The inclusion of these booking classes within the higher Flex eligibility category actually decreases the number of credits required to upgrade flights on certain markets when compared to 2014.
For eUpgrade credit requirements as of March 1, 2015, visit: http://www.aircanada.com/en/aeroplan...e/updates.html
eUpgrades to Premium Economy
In early 2015, you will be able to access the comfort of Premium Economy using eUpgrade Credits, when upgrading from an eligible fare. eUpgrade Add-ons will not apply for these upgrades.
eUpgrade Nominees
Beginning March 1, 2015, Altitude Super Elite 100K members will be entitled to share their eUpgrade privileges with one eUpgrade Nominee. Members will maintain their ability to share their eUpgrade privileges with Travel Companions.
Priority Boarding
In early 2015, a new streamlined boarding process will be introduced to ensure that you get even more out of the Priority Boarding privilege.
Complimentary access to International Maple Leaf Lounges and Star Alliance Business Lounges
As lounge occupancy grows, many of our lounges are at capacity levels. And while we continue to invest in many lounge expansion projects, the reality is that in many locations, additional space is simply not available. At the same time, benchmarking shows us that our eligibility polices are still over-indexed as compared to many of our competitors. In particular, access to lounges is not a privilege offered by most international airlines at the 35,000 qualifying miles level. We have therefore modified our policy whereby Elite 35K members will continue to have access to Maple Leaf Lounges located in the domestic and trans-border departure zones, as well as those in Los Angeles and New York (LaGuardia). However access to International Maple Leaf Lounges or Star Alliance Business lounges will no longer be available as a Select Privilege. Instead, an option to purchase a Maple Leaf Club membership will be introduced with a 50% discount.
Priority Rewards
In order to maintain the integrity of the Priority Reward privilege for eligible Altitude members, Priority Rewards will be limited to ten (10) reservations (with up to 9 passengers each) per member per benefit period, beginning March 1, 2015. While a thorough analysis has indicated that this change will not impact the vast majority of members (over 95%), it will allow us to maintain a benefit which we know is widely appreciated.
Flight Rewards for Premium Economy
In early 2015, you will be able to redeem Aeroplan miles for seats in the Premium Economy cabin on Air Canada. Details will be coming soon.
Fuel Surcharge on Flight Rewards & Flight Reward change fee waivers
For reservations made as of March 1, 2015, the fuel surcharges on ClassicFlight rewards for travel within Canada and between Canada and the U.S. will be waived for all Altitude members (ie. 25K and higher) . This is applicable on flights operated by Air Canada, Air Canada Express and Air Canada rouge.
At the same time, Aeroplan Flight Reward change fee waivers for Super Elite 100K members will no longer be available for changes made on or after March 1, 2015. However, the fuel surcharges on ClassicFlight Rewards for travel between Canada and international destinations will be waived for Super Elite 100K members on flights operated by Air Canada, Air Canada Express and Air Canada rouge.
For a complete list of details regarding these changes, visit http://www.aircanada.com/en/aeroplan...e/updates.html
New REVISED REVISIONS to the Altitude Program (Oct 31 email)
=============
Last week, changes to Air Canada Altitude for 2015 were announced. As always, weve been listening to your feedback and will be adjusting certain elements of the program accordingly.
Threshold eUpgrades
The amount of eUpgrade Credits offered through the Threshold eUpgrade program will increase. As of 100,000 Altitude Qualifying Miles or 100 Altitude Qualifying Segments, 20 eUpgrade Credits will be awarded for every 40,000 AQM or 40 AQS flown.
eUpgrade Validity Date
eUpgrade Credits earned on or after November 7, 2014 will be valid until February 29, 2016.
Additionally, eUpgrade Credits earned on or after November 1, 2015 will be valid until February 28, 2017.
Mile Minimum
For travel from March 1, 2015 onwards, all Altitude members will earn a minimum of 250 miles on flights operated by Air Canada, Air Canada Express and Air Canada rouge as well as Star Alliance member airlines.
Minimum Air Canada Flight Requirement
For non-Canadian residents, the Minimum Air Canada Flight Requirement needed to reach Altitude status in 2016 will be 50% lower than the recently published Minimum Air Canada Flight Requirement.
These changes are representative of Air Canadas focus on recognizing our most valued and important members. We remain committed to offering you one of the best frequent flyer programs in the industry.
Air Canada
Important updates to Air Canada Altitude in 2015
Oct 25, 2014, 11:45 am
#1171
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC SEMM / HH Diamond
Posts: 3,203
I think there are two gambles that AC are betting on here.
First, they are clearly trying to increase the number of paid J seats. I don't think this is about the actual cost of putting a bum in a J seat ... it's about the (perceived) opportunity cost of people not buying J seats (because they think/hope/plan to use an eUp instead). By reducing the eUp possibility, AC is clearly hoping that more people will buy J.
Abstractly it's a reasonable thing for them to hope for. Speaking for me alone, there is zero chance that it will work. I'm an executive at a significantly sized company, and I have to buy Y for everywhere (incl TATL & TPAC). Heck, my boss is a very senior executive, and he sits in Y to China. There is NO WAY that I will be allowed to buy J - and so the only revenue impact that this change will have, is that it removes most of the motivation for me to buy a more expensive fare. If I have no eUp opportunity, then I may as well go for Tango.
The only residual motivation to buy a Flex fare is for the 100% miles ... but I need those miles for status, not for redeeming - and if the value of having that status is reduced (because of limited upgrade chances), then the need for me to chase status is reduced, too. I expect to clear MM in early-mid next year, so that will lock me in with the basics (lounge access, etc) ... beyond that, the value of going for SE is being significantly reduced.
So gamble one is that the changes will lead me to spend more on AC. For me at least, there is zero chance of that happening.
Gamble two that AC is betting on, is this abstract thing called "loyalty". It's hard to know what to think about this. Obviously AC would prefer for people to keep flying with them - but how much business value is associated with repeat business, is presumably up for debate.
One approach they could be taking, is to not worry about the small number of very high mileage customers so much. A case could be made that as long as you keep selling out planes, then who cares about how many repeat flights any individual takes? I have avoided the 777HD like the plague - but Ben said it's doing well, so presumably it's selling out.
As an SE, AC currently provides me with better service than (say) Delta, with whom I have no significant status. As a result, I make a significant effort to travel on AC when I can. However, taken at it's most basic level, you could argue that all PAX are fungible - as long as AC can fill the seat, why should they care if it's me in it? And if they don't care it's me, then why spend extra money on me?
Clearly it's not black & white, and clearly AC would prefer to have every flying person on their planes - but I think they've either made the bet that my loyalty won't be impacted, or that the value of my loyalty is not worth the costs.
The obvious risk in this is that loyalty is a long term thing ... and if these changes do impact people's loyalty, and in turn that does impact the bottom line ... loyalty is a hard thing to win back.
First, they are clearly trying to increase the number of paid J seats. I don't think this is about the actual cost of putting a bum in a J seat ... it's about the (perceived) opportunity cost of people not buying J seats (because they think/hope/plan to use an eUp instead). By reducing the eUp possibility, AC is clearly hoping that more people will buy J.
Abstractly it's a reasonable thing for them to hope for. Speaking for me alone, there is zero chance that it will work. I'm an executive at a significantly sized company, and I have to buy Y for everywhere (incl TATL & TPAC). Heck, my boss is a very senior executive, and he sits in Y to China. There is NO WAY that I will be allowed to buy J - and so the only revenue impact that this change will have, is that it removes most of the motivation for me to buy a more expensive fare. If I have no eUp opportunity, then I may as well go for Tango.
The only residual motivation to buy a Flex fare is for the 100% miles ... but I need those miles for status, not for redeeming - and if the value of having that status is reduced (because of limited upgrade chances), then the need for me to chase status is reduced, too. I expect to clear MM in early-mid next year, so that will lock me in with the basics (lounge access, etc) ... beyond that, the value of going for SE is being significantly reduced.
So gamble one is that the changes will lead me to spend more on AC. For me at least, there is zero chance of that happening.
Gamble two that AC is betting on, is this abstract thing called "loyalty". It's hard to know what to think about this. Obviously AC would prefer for people to keep flying with them - but how much business value is associated with repeat business, is presumably up for debate.
One approach they could be taking, is to not worry about the small number of very high mileage customers so much. A case could be made that as long as you keep selling out planes, then who cares about how many repeat flights any individual takes? I have avoided the 777HD like the plague - but Ben said it's doing well, so presumably it's selling out.
As an SE, AC currently provides me with better service than (say) Delta, with whom I have no significant status. As a result, I make a significant effort to travel on AC when I can. However, taken at it's most basic level, you could argue that all PAX are fungible - as long as AC can fill the seat, why should they care if it's me in it? And if they don't care it's me, then why spend extra money on me?
Clearly it's not black & white, and clearly AC would prefer to have every flying person on their planes - but I think they've either made the bet that my loyalty won't be impacted, or that the value of my loyalty is not worth the costs.
The obvious risk in this is that loyalty is a long term thing ... and if these changes do impact people's loyalty, and in turn that does impact the bottom line ... loyalty is a hard thing to win back.
Oct 25, 2014, 11:48 am
#1172
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: YYC
Programs: AC 50k 1MM, Marriott LT Titanium Elite
Posts: 3,411
Look, I won't deny the discrete cost of moving somebody from Y to an empty J seat at boarding 45 mins before departure isn't huge, but it does two things:
1) It cheapens the J product - I will again reference our European and Asian competitors who have very tight access policies to their premium cabins, and point out how highly valued they are, especially compared to our American competition - ever wonder why F fares are so cheap on US carriers?
2) It sets an expectation. If there's an expectation that for >50% of the time you can sit there without paying for it, why would you ever be incentivised to do so?
1) It cheapens the J product - I will again reference our European and Asian competitors who have very tight access policies to their premium cabins, and point out how highly valued they are, especially compared to our American competition - ever wonder why F fares are so cheap on US carriers?
2) It sets an expectation. If there's an expectation that for >50% of the time you can sit there without paying for it, why would you ever be incentivised to do so?
They allow one to fly up front about 10% of the time, if you are flying on an M fare, and about 5% of the time otherwise. Even as a SE. So you can say that > 50% is unreasonable, but I will say that 5-10% is useless.
And the last thing it does is cheapen the product. I am sure you guys know who I am, so there is no point in denying (nor have I in the past here on FT) that I sit up front the vast majority of times. But I still appreciate it. Each and every time. And as a result I gladly pay for flights out of my own pocket to ensure that I get to SE. And I gladly fly AC when there are cheaper alternatives.
But no more. I am not going to throw a fit. I am not blaming you personally. But I am saying this is the most egregious devaluation of the program in the last 15 years, and I am saying that SE offers no substantive value any more. So I will just not fly that much any more, and not at all with AC where there is a choice and a better (quality) option or less expensive option.
And the fact that this is conceived of, and still called, a loyalty program, is laughable.
I notice that AC (and I don't blame you Ben, but somebody from the loyalty program should really start responding here) can't articulate why all upgrades just don't go to the gate if this is really about revenue? And why if this is really about loyalty there isnt a choice in choosing privileges between matching miles and eUps, for example.
The sense that I get is that AC neither "gets it" nor understands the market. Nor appreciates just how impactful such an enormous devaluation is on our "loyalty".
Oct 25, 2014, 11:54 am
#1173
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC*SE 2MM
Posts: 16,710
They will be able to get far more than 24 of the new J seats in that front section. I'm thinking at least 32 and possibly 36 J between door 1 and 2 and that will be it for J with 3 or 4 rows of PY after door 2 (then ~350 sardines).
Oct 25, 2014, 11:55 am
#1174
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: YYC
Programs: AC 50k 1MM, Marriott LT Titanium Elite
Posts: 3,411
I think there are two gambles that AC are betting on here.
First, they are clearly trying to increase the number of paid J seats. I don't think this is about the actual cost of putting a bum in a J seat ... it's about the (perceived) opportunity cost of people not buying J seats (because they think/hope/plan to use an eUp instead). By reducing the eUp possibility, AC is clearly hoping that more people will buy J.
Abstractly it's a reasonable thing for them to hope for. Speaking for me alone, there is zero chance that it will work. I'm an executive at a significantly sized company, and I have to buy Y for everywhere (incl TATL & TPAC). Heck, my boss is a very senior executive, and he sits in Y to China. There is NO WAY that I will be allowed to buy J - and so the only revenue impact that this change will have, is that it removes most of the motivation for me to buy a more expensive fare. If I have no eUp opportunity, then I may as well go for Tango.
The only residual motivation to buy a Flex fare is for the 100% miles ... but I need those miles for status, not for redeeming - and if the value of having that status is reduced (because of limited upgrade chances), then the need for me to chase status is reduced, too. I expect to clear MM in early-mid next year, so that will lock me in with the basics (lounge access, etc) ... beyond that, the value of going for SE is being significantly reduced.
So gamble one is that the changes will lead me to spend more on AC. For me at least, there is zero chance of that happening.
First, they are clearly trying to increase the number of paid J seats. I don't think this is about the actual cost of putting a bum in a J seat ... it's about the (perceived) opportunity cost of people not buying J seats (because they think/hope/plan to use an eUp instead). By reducing the eUp possibility, AC is clearly hoping that more people will buy J.
Abstractly it's a reasonable thing for them to hope for. Speaking for me alone, there is zero chance that it will work. I'm an executive at a significantly sized company, and I have to buy Y for everywhere (incl TATL & TPAC). Heck, my boss is a very senior executive, and he sits in Y to China. There is NO WAY that I will be allowed to buy J - and so the only revenue impact that this change will have, is that it removes most of the motivation for me to buy a more expensive fare. If I have no eUp opportunity, then I may as well go for Tango.
The only residual motivation to buy a Flex fare is for the 100% miles ... but I need those miles for status, not for redeeming - and if the value of having that status is reduced (because of limited upgrade chances), then the need for me to chase status is reduced, too. I expect to clear MM in early-mid next year, so that will lock me in with the basics (lounge access, etc) ... beyond that, the value of going for SE is being significantly reduced.
So gamble one is that the changes will lead me to spend more on AC. For me at least, there is zero chance of that happening.
There is zero chance that anybody in our company (large multinational) will be allowed to fly J or Z as a result of this. And not even senior managers, directors, or VPs are allowed to fly J domestically, so it is dead certain that I, and the people that report to me, will not be allowed.
If any compromise can be reached with FF in our company, it has been reached and I allows us to fly on an M fare. But that has wildly reduced value now.
Instead we will just buy WestJet or Tango fares.
Incidentally, I also agree that as a SEMM the incentive to keep flying AC is even smaller. Exactly the opposite of what should be the case for a FF or "loyalty" (snort!) program.
Oct 25, 2014, 11:57 am
#1175
Join Date: Jan 2012
Programs: AC E50K, MM, BA, Delta, PriorityClub Platinum, Marriott Gold.
Posts: 470
alexbc, as to the matter of non-opup upgrades, for a long time Asian and some European airlines on their long haul routes and when business class was first introduced, would upgrade full fare Y customers into this cabin, even though it was also sold for a premium. However, in those days the cabin and amenities were not as they are today, where business has pretty much replaced first class on many carriers. That practice was a deal between the airlines and travel agents for their clients, but has long gone by the boards as business has become a fully differentiated cabin, fare class and service entity.
Oct 25, 2014, 11:57 am
#1176
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: YYZ, MNL, WAW
Programs: Marriott Titanium, Lifetime Plat, (now an AC nobody)
Posts: 1,978
I think there are two gambles that AC are betting on here.
First, they are clearly trying to increase the number of paid J seats. I don't think this is about the actual cost of putting a bum in a J seat ... it's about the (perceived) opportunity cost of people not buying J seats (because they think/hope/plan to use an eUp instead). By reducing the eUp possibility, AC is clearly hoping that more people will buy J.
Abstractly it's a reasonable thing for them to hope for. Speaking for me alone, there is zero chance that it will work. I'm an executive at a significantly sized company, and I have to buy Y for everywhere (incl TATL & TPAC). Heck, my boss is a very senior executive, and he sits in Y to China. There is NO WAY that I will be allowed to buy J - and so the only revenue impact that this change will have, is that it removes most of the motivation for me to buy a more expensive fare. If I have no eUp opportunity, then I may as well go for Tango.
The only residual motivation to buy a Flex fare is for the 100% miles ... but I need those miles for status, not for redeeming - and if the value of having that status is reduced (because of limited upgrade chances), then the need for me to chase status is reduced, too. I expect to clear MM in early-mid next year, so that will lock me in with the basics (lounge access, etc) ... beyond that, the value of going for SE is being significantly reduced.
So gamble one is that the changes will lead me to spend more on AC. For me at least, there is zero chance of that happening.
Gamble two that AC is betting on, is this abstract thing called "loyalty". It's hard to know what to think about this. Obviously AC would prefer for people to keep flying with them - but how much business value is associated with repeat business, is presumably up for debate.
One approach they could be taking, is to not worry about the small number of very high mileage customers so much. A case could be made that as long as you keep selling out planes, then who cares about how many repeat flights any individual takes? I have avoided the 777HD like the plague - but Ben said it's doing well, so presumably it's selling out.
As an SE, AC currently provides me with better service than (say) Delta, with whom I have no significant status. As a result, I make a significant effort to travel on AC when I can. However, taken at it's most basic level, you could argue that all PAX are fungible - as long as AC can fill the seat, why should they care if it's me in it? And if they don't care it's me, then why spend extra money on me?
Clearly it's not black & white, and clearly AC would prefer to have every flying person on their planes - but I think they've either made the bet that my loyalty won't be impacted, or that the value of my loyalty is not worth the costs.
The obvious risk in this is that loyalty is a long term thing ... and if these changes do impact people's loyalty, and in turn that does impact the bottom line ... loyalty is a hard thing to win back.
First, they are clearly trying to increase the number of paid J seats. I don't think this is about the actual cost of putting a bum in a J seat ... it's about the (perceived) opportunity cost of people not buying J seats (because they think/hope/plan to use an eUp instead). By reducing the eUp possibility, AC is clearly hoping that more people will buy J.
Abstractly it's a reasonable thing for them to hope for. Speaking for me alone, there is zero chance that it will work. I'm an executive at a significantly sized company, and I have to buy Y for everywhere (incl TATL & TPAC). Heck, my boss is a very senior executive, and he sits in Y to China. There is NO WAY that I will be allowed to buy J - and so the only revenue impact that this change will have, is that it removes most of the motivation for me to buy a more expensive fare. If I have no eUp opportunity, then I may as well go for Tango.
The only residual motivation to buy a Flex fare is for the 100% miles ... but I need those miles for status, not for redeeming - and if the value of having that status is reduced (because of limited upgrade chances), then the need for me to chase status is reduced, too. I expect to clear MM in early-mid next year, so that will lock me in with the basics (lounge access, etc) ... beyond that, the value of going for SE is being significantly reduced.
So gamble one is that the changes will lead me to spend more on AC. For me at least, there is zero chance of that happening.
Gamble two that AC is betting on, is this abstract thing called "loyalty". It's hard to know what to think about this. Obviously AC would prefer for people to keep flying with them - but how much business value is associated with repeat business, is presumably up for debate.
One approach they could be taking, is to not worry about the small number of very high mileage customers so much. A case could be made that as long as you keep selling out planes, then who cares about how many repeat flights any individual takes? I have avoided the 777HD like the plague - but Ben said it's doing well, so presumably it's selling out.
As an SE, AC currently provides me with better service than (say) Delta, with whom I have no significant status. As a result, I make a significant effort to travel on AC when I can. However, taken at it's most basic level, you could argue that all PAX are fungible - as long as AC can fill the seat, why should they care if it's me in it? And if they don't care it's me, then why spend extra money on me?
Clearly it's not black & white, and clearly AC would prefer to have every flying person on their planes - but I think they've either made the bet that my loyalty won't be impacted, or that the value of my loyalty is not worth the costs.
The obvious risk in this is that loyalty is a long term thing ... and if these changes do impact people's loyalty, and in turn that does impact the bottom line ... loyalty is a hard thing to win back.
Oct 25, 2014, 11:59 am
#1177
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Programs: AC*SE100K 1MM, Little Lebowski Urban Achiever
Posts: 735
Agree, but I am not allowed to buy J domestically, and I will now go lowest price for J international. Sure as Ben said the US carriers have a devalued J class domestically, but as I said before, I don't really care whether I'm in J YYZ-ATL, or even to LAX for that matter. International is where it is important, and I already pay for J 50%+ of the time. I don't think they thought this through.
Oct 25, 2014, 12:00 pm
#1178
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: YYZ most of the time
Programs: AC SE100K MM, Princess Elite
Posts: 3,921
AC is touting their wonderful J product on the 787. Have you actually seen it? The true beneficiary of the new J is AC not the customer. Because the seats overlap they can get in far more seats than the current version in the same real estate.
They will be able to get far more than 24 of the new J seats in that front section. I'm thinking at least 32 and possibly 36 J between door 1 and 2 and that will be it for J with 3 or 4 rows of PY after door 2 (then ~350 sardines).
They will be able to get far more than 24 of the new J seats in that front section. I'm thinking at least 32 and possibly 36 J between door 1 and 2 and that will be it for J with 3 or 4 rows of PY after door 2 (then ~350 sardines).
Oct 25, 2014, 12:00 pm
#1179
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: YYC
Programs: AC 50k 1MM, Marriott LT Titanium Elite
Posts: 3,411
Some oil companies that Im aware of have a 4 hour rule...
Again I don't think they're expecting people to buy up. They're clearing the cabin to pull out the extra seats and replace them with economy seats.
If they get an extra 2 rows of economy at say YYZ->YYC $700 a ticket X 12 instead of the 6 seats in J they lost which they were putting economy passengers in at $700 X 6... you get the drift... Lots of space for upgrades means the cabin is not optimized.
Again I don't think they're expecting people to buy up. They're clearing the cabin to pull out the extra seats and replace them with economy seats.
If they get an extra 2 rows of economy at say YYZ->YYC $700 a ticket X 12 instead of the 6 seats in J they lost which they were putting economy passengers in at $700 X 6... you get the drift... Lots of space for upgrades means the cabin is not optimized.
Rather than 2 rows of whatever on an M fare at $882 (YYC-YYZ on a Flex FP) round trip you will get 2 rows of whomever on a Tango fare at $492 round trip.
And that is the essence of a loyalty program. I am incentivized to purchase the more expensive ticket.
Except under the new program, I am not. There just isn't sufficient incentive any more.
Oct 25, 2014, 12:05 pm
#1180
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 249
Here's how I will change my revenue contribution to AC:
I fly mostly TB on AC metal, 5 years SE:
1. Will stop buying Flex flight passes (which I used almost exclusively for the last 1.5 years), and instead make more efforts to book in advance (unless some carveout in the eup scheme is made for Flex FP).
2. Will blend tango and Flex fares on these individual purchases
3. Will start accumulating with another award program (probably MP, but for the first time ever will start diligence on AA, DL,etc.)
4. I previously moved my intl business away from AC to discounted J fares on other airlines and have really enjoyed the variety and quality. It goes without saying that whichever loyalty program I choose, I will fly them wherever possible, limiting AC travel to where route/schedule make it the only viable option.
This is a conscious decision not to obtain SE for 2016. The only residual benefit of SE is the concierge service, but the lack of one at my US station (SFO), and the general aloofness of the YYZ group makes this a diminishing benefit. Note I'm not making comments about the individuals at YYZ, just that they are understaffed.
Finally, the comments about maintaining the integrity of the J product by restricting cabin access are really confusing. If preserving the integrity of the product is so important to AC, why are the pods and seats so filthy? This issue has been raised by me personally to AC mgt and on this board now for many months and I've noticed no appreciable change. Based on the recurring comments about cleanliness on this forum, I doubt there has been any progress made on this issue.
I fly mostly TB on AC metal, 5 years SE:
1. Will stop buying Flex flight passes (which I used almost exclusively for the last 1.5 years), and instead make more efforts to book in advance (unless some carveout in the eup scheme is made for Flex FP).
2. Will blend tango and Flex fares on these individual purchases
3. Will start accumulating with another award program (probably MP, but for the first time ever will start diligence on AA, DL,etc.)
4. I previously moved my intl business away from AC to discounted J fares on other airlines and have really enjoyed the variety and quality. It goes without saying that whichever loyalty program I choose, I will fly them wherever possible, limiting AC travel to where route/schedule make it the only viable option.
This is a conscious decision not to obtain SE for 2016. The only residual benefit of SE is the concierge service, but the lack of one at my US station (SFO), and the general aloofness of the YYZ group makes this a diminishing benefit. Note I'm not making comments about the individuals at YYZ, just that they are understaffed.
Finally, the comments about maintaining the integrity of the J product by restricting cabin access are really confusing. If preserving the integrity of the product is so important to AC, why are the pods and seats so filthy? This issue has been raised by me personally to AC mgt and on this board now for many months and I've noticed no appreciable change. Based on the recurring comments about cleanliness on this forum, I doubt there has been any progress made on this issue.
Last edited by ACB777; Oct 25, 2014 at 12:12 pm
Oct 25, 2014, 12:11 pm
#1181
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: YYZ, MNL, WAW
Programs: Marriott Titanium, Lifetime Plat, (now an AC nobody)
Posts: 1,978
Except that is wrong (no offence).
Rather than 2 rows of whatever on an M fare at $882 (YYC-YYZ on a Flex FP) round trip you will get 2 rows of whomever on a Tango fare at $492 round trip.
And that is the essence of a loyalty program. I am incentivized to purchase the more expensive ticket.
Except under the new program, I am not. There just isn't sufficient incentive any more.
Rather than 2 rows of whatever on an M fare at $882 (YYC-YYZ on a Flex FP) round trip you will get 2 rows of whomever on a Tango fare at $492 round trip.
And that is the essence of a loyalty program. I am incentivized to purchase the more expensive ticket.
Except under the new program, I am not. There just isn't sufficient incentive any more.
As I do my research on the BAEC and other *A alliance programs, it occurs to me that the AC forum has many threads with really upset clients...odd considering the size of the Canadian market, or perhaps not...maybe it's a reflection that the executive team at AC has got to go.
I sent Ben L. a pm a few days ago regarding issues with my E50K status. Not even an acknowledgement in return....just utter disappointment all around.
Oct 25, 2014, 12:13 pm
#1182
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: YVR
Programs: AC S100K
Posts: 978
It's the same reason that I have a half-dozen colleagues who use domestic Business flight passes despite the Latitude passes being functionally equivalent in most circumstances.
Each product you offer has a particular value proposition to particular customers in particular circumstances.
AC's proposing a massive change to its value proposition. It's probably been well analysed, but given the unprecedented magnitude of the change, you can't possibly have data points that provide confident indicators of post change consumer behavior. You're guessing.
You may have it right. Modern analytics often frighten me with how good they are at predicting my behavior. Time will tell.
But here and now, you've got a sample of knowledgable, high volume customers, who are calmly and rationally letting you know that the new value proposition doesn't work for them. Furthermore, they're telling you why.
Any business would be lucky to have that kind of feedback. Your business can do what it wants with it.
Last edited by BlueMilk; Oct 25, 2014 at 12:27 pm
Oct 25, 2014, 12:14 pm
#1183
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Toronto, and everywhere else..
Programs: AC E50
Posts: 274
I don't get it
Can I ask a question to Ben and the others ?
What is left for those who are not SE's ?
Where the SE's are concerned, they are over 90% in the negative with their reactions to the rolling out of your plans for the next year.
I will not deny any of the SE's the right to voice their views. To see some of the miles totals they travel, it's simply astounding and I'm surprised some of them are restrained.
But if they are pissed, what's left for the rest of us ?
Ben, your team says you want people to pay for J and you are not a charity. AC is a business, and I own one myself. I grant that.
To me, it feels like Altitude is simply mimicing LH's Miles and More program going forward. You are either at the highest level, or we just have to deal with you. In many ways, it's like creating a caste system. From everything I can feel: from posts, to benchmarking against other carriers and the research done, it does come down to that.
The other half of the loyalty brand in spirit, has been rolled into that other incredibly confusing Distinction mess that keeps any of us who fly on the phone trying to explain it to our families and friends.
Having been at an Elite level with AC for almost 15 years, my wife for the last five, it's not just about the upgrade chances anymore. I apologize that I simply cannot make the thresholds necessary to hit the SE level like some of my posting heros here.
But after 70 pages of this, it's the resignation to the fact that it seems like we are simply unimportant where your 'loyalty' program is involved. We pay escalating prices each year no matter what the price of the market.
I for one, have not bought a tango ticket in two years. Flex tickets are not cheap for some of us. Neither are the flight passes. A $ 20k spend on flight passes is a good chunk of change for a growing company.
Even for us 'bottom feeder' types, you are selling our limited perks out for cash anyhow, such as the lounge opportunities.
As many others have stated, I appreciate you being on here and I'm guessing you are either enjoying the theatrics to a certain degree or rolling your eyes. We are too.
I hope you enjoy the drama, and I'm sure the SE's will get something back.
But what about those of us below ?
Thanks.
What is left for those who are not SE's ?
Where the SE's are concerned, they are over 90% in the negative with their reactions to the rolling out of your plans for the next year.
I will not deny any of the SE's the right to voice their views. To see some of the miles totals they travel, it's simply astounding and I'm surprised some of them are restrained.
But if they are pissed, what's left for the rest of us ?
Ben, your team says you want people to pay for J and you are not a charity. AC is a business, and I own one myself. I grant that.
To me, it feels like Altitude is simply mimicing LH's Miles and More program going forward. You are either at the highest level, or we just have to deal with you. In many ways, it's like creating a caste system. From everything I can feel: from posts, to benchmarking against other carriers and the research done, it does come down to that.
The other half of the loyalty brand in spirit, has been rolled into that other incredibly confusing Distinction mess that keeps any of us who fly on the phone trying to explain it to our families and friends.
Having been at an Elite level with AC for almost 15 years, my wife for the last five, it's not just about the upgrade chances anymore. I apologize that I simply cannot make the thresholds necessary to hit the SE level like some of my posting heros here.
But after 70 pages of this, it's the resignation to the fact that it seems like we are simply unimportant where your 'loyalty' program is involved. We pay escalating prices each year no matter what the price of the market.
I for one, have not bought a tango ticket in two years. Flex tickets are not cheap for some of us. Neither are the flight passes. A $ 20k spend on flight passes is a good chunk of change for a growing company.
Even for us 'bottom feeder' types, you are selling our limited perks out for cash anyhow, such as the lounge opportunities.
As many others have stated, I appreciate you being on here and I'm guessing you are either enjoying the theatrics to a certain degree or rolling your eyes. We are too.
I hope you enjoy the drama, and I'm sure the SE's will get something back.
But what about those of us below ?
Thanks.
Oct 25, 2014, 12:15 pm
#1184
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: AC SE, SPG Lifetime Plat, ACMM
Posts: 3,535
Ben L, I am quite in agreement with you that AC is not a charity--but do NOT ever think you are giving us anything for FREE. That is arrogance. The benefits we get are because we have paid for it. This was actually ponited out to me by AC a number of years ago.
To say that having me sit in J on an upgrade cheapens the product is really an insult.
Telling us that Rouge is the same as business class when the seats are less spacious, the food worse. IFE limited and service lackadaisical--and saying we should pay the same J fare for it is really gouging the customer. IMHO.
I recently flew paid J MCO-YYC on UA as Rouge was 600 dollars more and the IFE was not really worth that much.
I do fly a lot in paid C/D/Z and have been known to pay a couple of hundred dollars more to fly AC but cannot justify paying 3000.00 more for YYC-EZE.
Now I can easily look at flying other airlines and as I am paying J fares I will get the benefits.
Now it will be tango fares on the short hauls ( flex before as the minimum miles was good ) but sine I fly over 150K most of the time the minimums do not really matter to me.
I have NEVER flown Westjet or Porter but now am seriously looking at it.
Will AC suffer because I am not flying as much with them? Not likely.
Will I pay more to fly AC? Not anymore
As far as improved J is concerned, AC should get that done first before comparing themselves.
I was PPS with SQ but the rules were known and dependable. Now they have made it somewhat more relaxed as the world is changing and better offerings for loyalty is in the cards.
Lastly, it is sad to see that AC thinks it's frequent flyers are pests. Pity.
To say that having me sit in J on an upgrade cheapens the product is really an insult.
Telling us that Rouge is the same as business class when the seats are less spacious, the food worse. IFE limited and service lackadaisical--and saying we should pay the same J fare for it is really gouging the customer. IMHO.
I recently flew paid J MCO-YYC on UA as Rouge was 600 dollars more and the IFE was not really worth that much.
I do fly a lot in paid C/D/Z and have been known to pay a couple of hundred dollars more to fly AC but cannot justify paying 3000.00 more for YYC-EZE.
Now I can easily look at flying other airlines and as I am paying J fares I will get the benefits.
Now it will be tango fares on the short hauls ( flex before as the minimum miles was good ) but sine I fly over 150K most of the time the minimums do not really matter to me.
I have NEVER flown Westjet or Porter but now am seriously looking at it.
Will AC suffer because I am not flying as much with them? Not likely.
Will I pay more to fly AC? Not anymore
As far as improved J is concerned, AC should get that done first before comparing themselves.
I was PPS with SQ but the rules were known and dependable. Now they have made it somewhat more relaxed as the world is changing and better offerings for loyalty is in the cards.
Lastly, it is sad to see that AC thinks it's frequent flyers are pests. Pity.
Oct 25, 2014, 12:17 pm
#1185
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: YYC
Programs: AC 50k 1MM, Marriott LT Titanium Elite
Posts: 3,411
This is what happens when you let bean counters have too much say in these "loyalty" programs. Loyalty is a two way street.
As I do my research on the BAEC and other *A alliance programs, it occurs to me that the AC forum has many threads with really upset clients...odd considering the size of the Canadian market, or perhaps not...maybe it's a reflection that the executive team at AC has got to go.
As I do my research on the BAEC and other *A alliance programs, it occurs to me that the AC forum has many threads with really upset clients...odd considering the size of the Canadian market, or perhaps not...maybe it's a reflection that the executive team at AC has got to go.
They wouldn't give a SE 70 eUps to start with, then nothing to 60k and 80k and 100k. They should give us *nothing* to start with, then evenly spread the 110 eUps I will earn to get to SE over the 100k miles. That way I am incentivized (sort of, I still think it is insufficient given the cost of upgrading a segment, but whatever) to keep flying.
The current plan actually encourages me to stop flying after I used up my initial 70 eUps with 8 segments. Because further flying has greatly diminishing returns.
That is Allvest's complaint too. And he is just right. The program not only was horrendously devalued, but it actually operates the reverse of what a loyalty program should!