HA: HNL - Europe?
Feb 20, 2013, 7:08 am
#31
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From Europe you can get to some pretty far-flung places as it is that involve a shorter flight and that are probably far cheaper to get to (look at the competition on routes to Thailand, for instance - some carriers such as Lufthansa and Air France can't make money on the route - http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles...-nkg-cut.html; http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-f...ofitable.html; BA: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/briti...owngraded.html) Many of these destinations are also far cheaper than Hawaii. Whether for good or for bad, Hawaii just doesn't really feature as a viable 2 week holiday destination for most Europeans - and even if there was a direct service I don't think it would really make it all that more attractive.
In 2011 (the last year whose figures I could find), [url=http://www.hawaiitourismauthority.org/default/assets/File/research/2011%20State%20Factsheet%20073112.pdf]114,823 arrivals from Europe were recorded[/quote]. Looking back over the last decade or so, the figure is fairly stable at a little above 100k per year. A report from a few years back indicates that around half of that figure comes from the UK alone. So the UK would clearly be the best place to target first. Still, while an existing market of 50,000 passengers a year could probably be grown, I'm not sure they would be able to stimulate demand enough to make the route profitable...
Feb 20, 2013, 1:58 pm
#32
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Upcountry Maui, HI
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I
But a 50 year old doctor and his lawyer wife from the suburbs of London is used to flying Premium Economy long-haul, and getting a glass of champagne before take-off and included IFE, pillows, blanket, premium drinks. Sitting in domestic Coach on United for 5 hours after having left London 14 hours earlier is a dealbreaker, pure and simple.
But a 50 year old doctor and his lawyer wife from the suburbs of London is used to flying Premium Economy long-haul, and getting a glass of champagne before take-off and included IFE, pillows, blanket, premium drinks. Sitting in domestic Coach on United for 5 hours after having left London 14 hours earlier is a dealbreaker, pure and simple.
The Hawaii Tourism Authority website lists visitor totals from the various regions around the world.
-David
Last edited by LIH Prem; Feb 20, 2013 at 3:19 pm
Feb 20, 2013, 4:53 pm
#33
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they are making it work on other routes and people that fly from UK and EU to Hawaii today pay more than that.
That seems to be where Dunkerly has been successful, making routes work that haven't worked or don't work for others.
Anyway, no matter how you look at it or agree/disagree with an opinion here, that's all it is at this point.
They could do it via YVR.
-David
That seems to be where Dunkerly has been successful, making routes work that haven't worked or don't work for others.
Anyway, no matter how you look at it or agree/disagree with an opinion here, that's all it is at this point.
They could do it via YVR.
-David
No alliance kills it for me personally.
(Maybe for leisure travelers but AB couldn't even make money there and fares to Europe were dirt cheap, plus I get OW benefits to boot.)
Feb 20, 2013, 6:19 pm
#34
Join Date: Nov 2000
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lol. Do you want to try that again with the correct context? 
They could do it via YVR.
-David
I don't know if BA/any European airline would have the necessary rights to operate such a flight, stopping in one US port before continuing to another (HNL), and even if they could, they definitely would not have the right to pick up passengers for carriage only between the US ports, which would make such a service harder to justify (only US carriers can carry passengers on domestic sectors entirely within the United States).
Feb 20, 2013, 7:39 pm
#36
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I think that also illustrates why Europeans would not particularly want a direct flight to Hawaii - it's just that bit too far.
From Europe you can get to some pretty far-flung places as it is that involve a shorter flight and that are probably far cheaper to get to (look at the competition on routes to Thailand, for instance - some carriers such as Lufthansa and Air France can't make money on the route - http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles...-nkg-cut.html; http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-f...ofitable.html; BA: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/briti...owngraded.html) Many of these destinations are also far cheaper than Hawaii. Whether for good or for bad, Hawaii just doesn't really feature as a viable 2 week holiday destination for most Europeans - and even if there was a direct service I don't think it would really make it all that more attractive.
In 2011 (the last year whose figures I could find), [url=http://www.hawaiitourismauthority.org/default/assets/File/research/2011%20State%20Factsheet%20073112.pdf]114,823 arrivals from Europe were recorded
From Europe you can get to some pretty far-flung places as it is that involve a shorter flight and that are probably far cheaper to get to (look at the competition on routes to Thailand, for instance - some carriers such as Lufthansa and Air France can't make money on the route - http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/miles...-nkg-cut.html; http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-f...ofitable.html; BA: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/briti...owngraded.html) Many of these destinations are also far cheaper than Hawaii. Whether for good or for bad, Hawaii just doesn't really feature as a viable 2 week holiday destination for most Europeans - and even if there was a direct service I don't think it would really make it all that more attractive.
In 2011 (the last year whose figures I could find), [url=http://www.hawaiitourismauthority.org/default/assets/File/research/2011%20State%20Factsheet%20073112.pdf]114,823 arrivals from Europe were recorded
I partially agree. But huge numbers of Europeans spent time in Hawaii when their aircraft from Australia or New Zealand used to have to refuel there, so the interest was always there.
Hundreds of thousands of Europeans visit the Maldives and coastal Thailand and Malaysia each year, with a large proportion flying 16-24 hours via Dubai or Singapore.
But those flights are comfortable - there is AVOD, proper meals and free drinks even in Economy class. As soon as a Travel Agent explains the levels of discomfort on the long US domestic sectors to get to Hawaii those passengers lock in Phuket or Bali instead.
Feb 20, 2013, 8:57 pm
#37
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I'll repost post #8 again for the sake of this discussion. Yes, there were decades of BA service from the UK to Hawaii, using HNL as a stopover point and hub to other destinations in Japan or in Oceania. SQ also used to fly to HNL via TPE using Boeing 747-200s and DC-10s. The routing was SIN-TPE-HNL-LAX. As said previously, HNL has a whole history of successful airline service, where airlines used HNL as a stopover to serve other markets and not necessary an end of line destination. And, if you go back further, the first carrier to use HNL as stopover airline service was PA, using the Martin M-130 China Clipper. See below:
Back in the day, BA's predecessor, BOAC (British Overseas Airways Corporation) used HNL as a hub for their flights from LHR for years, connecting on the US east coast or polar route nonstop to SFO or LAX. These flights would then continue on from SFO and LAX to HNL, and then on again continue to NAN, SYD or TYO. Eventually, these flights would then thread their way via Asia back to LHR. BA's Boeing 707-420s or Vickers Super VC-10s were used on these routes.
UA used to have, and may still have one-stop HNL-SFO-LHR service with one flight number, although a change of plane may be required in SFO.
In the early 1980s, with the arrival of longer range wide-body aircraft, most airlines that used to serve HNL from Asia to the US mainland would begin to overfly HNL in order to serve growing business markets in those sectors wanting nonstop trans pacific service. HA has been successful so far in reversing that trend by reintroducing HNL as a hub servicing the pacific rim, while capturing new combinations of leisure and leisure/business markets via HNL. Furthermore, as partners, one can conceivably fly on a one-stop LHR-LAX-HNL flight today, using VS and HA with LAX as a transfer point. So there are many successful historical precedents for Hawaii-Europe service. It's just that many on this forum think of HNL solely as a destination, whereas, in history, HNL was a popular stopover point for the Oceania-Hawaii-Europe market. This route was seen as a faster way of getting to western Europe than flying through Asia, while allowing a stopover for rest in Hawaii.
UA used to have, and may still have one-stop HNL-SFO-LHR service with one flight number, although a change of plane may be required in SFO.
In the early 1980s, with the arrival of longer range wide-body aircraft, most airlines that used to serve HNL from Asia to the US mainland would begin to overfly HNL in order to serve growing business markets in those sectors wanting nonstop trans pacific service. HA has been successful so far in reversing that trend by reintroducing HNL as a hub servicing the pacific rim, while capturing new combinations of leisure and leisure/business markets via HNL. Furthermore, as partners, one can conceivably fly on a one-stop LHR-LAX-HNL flight today, using VS and HA with LAX as a transfer point. So there are many successful historical precedents for Hawaii-Europe service. It's just that many on this forum think of HNL solely as a destination, whereas, in history, HNL was a popular stopover point for the Oceania-Hawaii-Europe market. This route was seen as a faster way of getting to western Europe than flying through Asia, while allowing a stopover for rest in Hawaii.
Feb 21, 2013, 4:34 am
#38
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And back in the day, ANC and SNN were major technical stops too!
I wish I'd experienced the days of real round-the-world service like that, but these days, the European carriers that serve Asia/South East Asia/Oceania/Australia all fly east from Europe, rather than heading west across the Atlantic (the sole exception I'm aware of being Air France's CDG-LAX-PPT). (As an avid Australia visitor, it's extremely rare to get suggestions from Europe to Australia routing through the US)
Hawaii is just about positioned in the worst possible place for services from Europe. It's no longer on an established route to anywhere else (viewed from Europe) so the European airlines no longer find themselves flying over the Pacific and so won't have the opportunity to call at Hawaii. And it's probably just not a lucrative enough destination in its own right (viewed from Europe), particularly when it can be reached so easily from the continental United States, to justify a dedicated service of its own.
I wish I'd experienced the days of real round-the-world service like that, but these days, the European carriers that serve Asia/South East Asia/Oceania/Australia all fly east from Europe, rather than heading west across the Atlantic (the sole exception I'm aware of being Air France's CDG-LAX-PPT). (As an avid Australia visitor, it's extremely rare to get suggestions from Europe to Australia routing through the US)
Hawaii is just about positioned in the worst possible place for services from Europe. It's no longer on an established route to anywhere else (viewed from Europe) so the European airlines no longer find themselves flying over the Pacific and so won't have the opportunity to call at Hawaii. And it's probably just not a lucrative enough destination in its own right (viewed from Europe), particularly when it can be reached so easily from the continental United States, to justify a dedicated service of its own.
Feb 21, 2013, 7:47 pm
#39
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In effect, Americans from west of the Rockies travel to Hawaii, but from east of the Rockies they are far, far more likely to go to the Caribbean or Mexico.
... most Americans are incredibly ignorant about their 50th state. They haven't a clue that there is a Royal history or that it offers anything more than the "big beach on a t*rd of an island" that certain West Indian islands offer. Their own President has to play down his Hawaiian upbringing to get elected, and has to purport to be from Chicago.
... most Americans are incredibly ignorant about their 50th state. They haven't a clue that there is a Royal history or that it offers anything more than the "big beach on a t*rd of an island" that certain West Indian islands offer. Their own President has to play down his Hawaiian upbringing to get elected, and has to purport to be from Chicago.
US east coast volume to Hawaii has been none too shabby, between 1.5 - 2 million/year since 1989; UA's ORD/EWR NS service continues to thrive and HA's JFK also seems to have been successful.
With all respect, the "incredibly ignorant" statement is a bit out of line. Not sure how anyone can gauge "most American's" perception or appreciation of the 50th State, but I find it difficult to assume that Hawaii is viewed (by either Yanks or Europeans) as an obscure, historically insignificant destination with nothing more to offer than a beach.
Perhaps I don't understand the negative sentiment (indirectly expressed above) for a route that will not be fully contemplated for several years, if it doesn't make sense then so be it, Dunkerley clearly expressed this caution.
Feb 22, 2013, 6:11 am
#40
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Thurgau, Switzerland
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It would not be the first time HA flies to Europe: There was a weekly ZRH ANC HNL flight about 25 years ago. A DC-8 was used, even then by no means a state-of-the-art bird. And it was a lousy operation with plenty of cancellations and long delays.
Looking at European arrivals in Hawaii can be misleading: Hawaii is mainly an add-on to mainland vacations, California + Hawaii being the most obvious combination. Frankly, I’ve hardly ever heard of a European visitor going straight to Hawaii and straight back again.
Hawaii is not a mass market destination for Europeans and it will never be. For the premium market, US domestic airline standards are not competitive, as others have stated.
Looking at European arrivals in Hawaii can be misleading: Hawaii is mainly an add-on to mainland vacations, California + Hawaii being the most obvious combination. Frankly, I’ve hardly ever heard of a European visitor going straight to Hawaii and straight back again.
Hawaii is not a mass market destination for Europeans and it will never be. For the premium market, US domestic airline standards are not competitive, as others have stated.
Feb 23, 2013, 12:09 pm
#41
Join Date: Dec 2007
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And back in the day, ANC and SNN were major technical stops too!
I wish I'd experienced the days of real round-the-world service like that, but these days, the European carriers that serve Asia/South East Asia/Oceania/Australia all fly east from Europe, rather than heading west across the Atlantic (the sole exception I'm aware of being Air France's CDG-LAX-PPT). (As an avid Australia visitor, it's extremely rare to get suggestions from Europe to Australia routing through the US)
Hawaii is just about positioned in the worst possible place for services from Europe. It's no longer on an established route to anywhere else (viewed from Europe) so the European airlines no longer find themselves flying over the Pacific and so won't have the opportunity to call at Hawaii. And it's probably just not a lucrative enough destination in its own right (viewed from Europe), particularly when it can be reached so easily from the continental United States, to justify a dedicated service of its own.
I wish I'd experienced the days of real round-the-world service like that, but these days, the European carriers that serve Asia/South East Asia/Oceania/Australia all fly east from Europe, rather than heading west across the Atlantic (the sole exception I'm aware of being Air France's CDG-LAX-PPT). (As an avid Australia visitor, it's extremely rare to get suggestions from Europe to Australia routing through the US)
Hawaii is just about positioned in the worst possible place for services from Europe. It's no longer on an established route to anywhere else (viewed from Europe) so the European airlines no longer find themselves flying over the Pacific and so won't have the opportunity to call at Hawaii. And it's probably just not a lucrative enough destination in its own right (viewed from Europe), particularly when it can be reached so easily from the continental United States, to justify a dedicated service of its own.
It would not be the first time HA flies to Europe: There was a weekly ZRH ANC HNL flight about 25 years ago. A DC-8 was used, even then by no means a state-of-the-art bird. And it was a lousy operation with plenty of cancellations and long delays.
Looking at European arrivals in Hawaii can be misleading: Hawaii is mainly an add-on to mainland vacations, California + Hawaii being the most obvious combination. Frankly, I’ve hardly ever heard of a European visitor going straight to Hawaii and straight back again.
Hawaii is not a mass market destination for Europeans and it will never be. For the premium market, US domestic airline standards are not competitive, as others have stated.
Looking at European arrivals in Hawaii can be misleading: Hawaii is mainly an add-on to mainland vacations, California + Hawaii being the most obvious combination. Frankly, I’ve hardly ever heard of a European visitor going straight to Hawaii and straight back again.
Hawaii is not a mass market destination for Europeans and it will never be. For the premium market, US domestic airline standards are not competitive, as others have stated.
No one said that Hawaii is a mass destination for Europeans. But repeating again, the airline history is there for HNL to have stopover service. QF had this kind of service. So did NZ, AC and CPAir, back in the day. JL had the same transpacific service using HNL as a stopover as PA.
Feb 23, 2013, 10:44 pm
#42
Join Date: Nov 2000
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Feb 24, 2013, 1:10 am
#43
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It's interesting to read the many comments from naysayers.
I think I pretty much agree that there isn't a huge market for premium travel from Europe to Hawaii. What limited premium market exists probably opts for F or C class with proper lie-flats seats on direct flights to SEA/SFO/LAX, with connections to HNL/OGG/KOA - no need to change to HA.
That said, Hawaii gets plenty of students, researchers, ecotourists and other visitors from Europe. And plenty of us from Hawaii make it to Europe as well. I recently did ITO-HNL-EWR-IST-AYT on HA/UA/TK. The HNL-EWR-IST portion of that is two overnight flights of about 10 hours each, with a five-hour layover in between. Would I trade those 25 hours and the "double redeye" for a single flight of, say, 15-17 hours? Of course I would.
If they can make this work 2 frequencies a week (say, one on the weekend and one mid-week), it'd be of great interest to me.
I think I pretty much agree that there isn't a huge market for premium travel from Europe to Hawaii. What limited premium market exists probably opts for F or C class with proper lie-flats seats on direct flights to SEA/SFO/LAX, with connections to HNL/OGG/KOA - no need to change to HA.
That said, Hawaii gets plenty of students, researchers, ecotourists and other visitors from Europe. And plenty of us from Hawaii make it to Europe as well. I recently did ITO-HNL-EWR-IST-AYT on HA/UA/TK. The HNL-EWR-IST portion of that is two overnight flights of about 10 hours each, with a five-hour layover in between. Would I trade those 25 hours and the "double redeye" for a single flight of, say, 15-17 hours? Of course I would.
If they can make this work 2 frequencies a week (say, one on the weekend and one mid-week), it'd be of great interest to me.