HA: HNL - Europe?
 

http://www.staradvertiser.com/editor...l?id=190571391

"We are studying traffic from Europe to Hawaii and, hopefully, five years from now, the number of Europeans in Hawaii will be sufficient to justify operating flights nonstop from Hawaii to Europe," said Hawaiian Airlines' Mark Dunkerley.

Part of what has created the possibility has been Hawaiian's purchase of long-range Airbus A-350 jet airliners produced by a consortium of European aerospace companies in France. Hawaiian presently has nine in its fleet and 13 more on order, five of which will arrive this year, Dunkerley said.

"The A-350 has tremendous range," he said. "It's an aircraft that can fly for 17 or so hours," he said. "Once you have that kind of range, parts of Europe come into range, as do some of the parts of Asia that are farther from us, places like Singapore, Bangkok.

"It's still some five years until those aircraft arrive in our fleets," Dunkerley added cautiously, "and so we certainly watch Europe very closely with absolutely not making any commitments right now."

Right you are inlanikai, SA did drop the ball....again, agree with hopes for 350 success and yes, flat would be nice..

Once again SA doesn't get it's facts right. HA presently has no A350s in its fleet. What they do have are A332s.

That being said, once they do get the 350s five years from now they will decide then where to fly them based on a wide range of economic and political (visa) factors. Having traveled to Singapore extensively my opinion is that the good people of Singapore will have little desire to go from one tropical climate to another, they are not beach lovers and the shopping there is as good as Oahu. It is also a small market.

All the best to HA with the 350s. Just make sure the biz seat is full flat. ;)

Technically, Hawaiian's A332s could already hit Bangkok, Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, Oslo, Stockholm, London, or Amsterdam. They've got insane amounts of fuel capacity - you can add about 130 tons of people + cargo + fuel to an empty A332, but the tanks will hold something like 109 tons of fuel, if you're hellbent on distance and only have 22 tons of everything else! ;)

But I doubt anyone wants to pay HA to fly mostly-empty 332s around, so let's go with the "fully loaded" range (7250nm) rather than "fully fueled" (7770nm). Meanwhile, the A358's projected range is 8480nm.

So Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou and/or Hong Kong are all within range of the 332. Bangkok might be, if the winds aren't bad, but I'd expect them to play it safe and use the 350 for that run, and/or Singapore or Kuala Lumpur. They could even do a direct run between Honolulu and Delhi!

On the European side, London, Amsterdam, Brussels, Paris and Frankfurt are all at least 1000 miles under maximum range for the 350, so it'll depend on who they want to connect with, I guess. Istanbul wouldn't leave enough reserve fuel, which is sad since TK alone flies to over 90 countries from there (they've pulled ahead of AF in number of countries flown to) which would make it a pretty neat place to connect!

Sorry, but I think there is no real market for 15h-Flights (!) to Honolulu in England, France or Germany. The Time for Ultra-Long-Haul is over.

For leisure, I agree, especially for the Europeans who love the Canary Islands and the Caribbean. But for business travel I would much rather have one long flight that have to connect.

I agree with the first half of this view but not the second. ULH isn't dead but Hawaii isn't going to be the destination for it.

I recall about 20 years ago, LH did a FRA-HNL non-stop to test the market; I remember watching the local news as they sent camera crews out to the gate with a big welcome reception. The passengers walking off the plane had a zombie-like look to them...

Back in the day, BA's predecessor, BOAC (British Overseas Airways Corporation) used HNL as a hub for their flights from LHR for years, connecting on the US east coast or polar route nonstop to SFO or LAX. These flights would then continue on from SFO and LAX to HNL, and then on again continue to NAN, SYD or TYO. Eventually, these flights would then thread their way via Asia back to LHR. BA's Boeing 707-420s or Vickers Super VC-10s were used on these routes.

UA used to have, and may still have one-stop HNL-SFO-LHR service with one flight number, although a change of plane may be required in SFO.

In the early 1980s, with the arrival of longer range wide-body aircraft, most airlines that used to serve HNL from Asia to the US mainland would begin to overfly HNL in order to serve growing business markets in those sectors wanting nonstop trans pacific service. HA has been successful so far in reversing that trend by reintroducing HNL as a hub servicing the pacific rim, while capturing new combinations of leisure and leisure/business markets via HNL. Furthermore, as partners, one can conceivably fly on a one-stop LHR-LAX-HNL flight today, using VS and HA with LAX as a transfer point. So there are many successful historical precedents for Hawaii-Europe service. It's just that many on this forum think of HNL solely as a destination, whereas, in history, HNL was a popular stopover point for the Oceania-Hawaii-Europe market. This route was seen as a faster way of getting to western Europe than flying through Asia, while allowing a stopover for rest in Hawaii.

Business Travel from Germany, France or England to Hawaii? :confused:

Ultra-Long-Haul nowadays is almost Death. There isn't even a market for a Route like Singapur to New York or Los Angeles. Such Routes doesn't make Profit for Airlines.

Ultra Long Haul over - Not!
 

So the time for UHL is over? Tell that to the the airlines with daily flights LAX-SYD (7488 miles), LAX-HKG (7260 miles), LAX-MNL (7305 miles). LHR-HNL is in the same ball-park (7237 miles). I've done all of those and more, and it's not at all bad if the airline is passenger-friendly. In my opinion HA fits the requirements in that respect. I don't know about France and Germany, but my relatives and friends in the UK would jump at the chance to get to Hawaii in one hop, rather than waste 2+ days of precious vacation time sitting on separate flights and in airports on the US Mainland waiting for connecting flights.

As for comparing with the Canary Islands and the Caribbean - been there, done that - b-o-o-o-ring. No contest! Regardless, Hawaiian will make the decision based on economics but I will bet there is pent-up demand for a daily LHR-HNL flight.

Yes - start gently with a twice weekly service. Could be good.

Well, at 12300 ft, the runway is long enough for an a380 to operate there.

I do not say, that there is no Ulta-Long-Haul anymore. I just say, it's not the Time today for (Leisure)-Flights which take 15h+.
If Germany/England/France-Honolulu would be in any way a worthwhile investment, Lufthansa, British Airways or Air France would fly these route. But they don't fly these route, because the People of these Countries don't make theire Holidays in Hawaii.
People from the USA also don't make Holidays on the Balearic Islands or the Canary Islands.

That's not true. Hawaii is a worldwide destination. We get visitors from all over the world for different reasons be it windsurfers, kitesurfers, tri-athletes or just regular tourists on holiday looking for something different than their usual holiday spot.

The market may be a little thinner, but there's definitely a market.

And Hawaiian can do a lot more than the large legacy carriers can.

I don't know if they would ever do it, but I would think they could easily fill a 1x or 2x weekly service and expand from there if they are successful.

-David

Agreed! I just had an excellent vacation in Hawaii.. and would definitely have flown a more direct route if possible!