St. Jude patient in bloody takedown at checkpoint
Jul 7, 2016, 3:03 pm
#196
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: California. USA
Posts: 1,404
Thank you.
Neither, please. I'm agender.
You're quite welcome.
It is often a supremely frustrating process, especially since agencies rarely if ever obey the law IME. I've tried to give you the bluntly realistic answer.
The only exceptions that come to mind are CA agencies, which are IME much more likely to interpret the CA PRA's time limits as actually mandatory rather than mere suggestions, and tiny federal agencies for simple requests, because their "FOIA department" is one person's part-time job and they get very few requests.
Neither, please. I'm agender.
You're quite welcome.
It is often a supremely frustrating process, especially since agencies rarely if ever obey the law IME. I've tried to give you the bluntly realistic answer.
The only exceptions that come to mind are CA agencies, which are IME much more likely to interpret the CA PRA's time limits as actually mandatory rather than mere suggestions, and tiny federal agencies for simple requests, because their "FOIA department" is one person's part-time job and they get very few requests.
Jul 7, 2016, 3:10 pm
#197
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Thank you.
Neither, please. I'm agender.
You're quite welcome.
It is often a supremely frustrating process, especially since agencies rarely if ever obey the law IME. I've tried to give you the bluntly realistic answer.
The only exceptions that come to mind are CA agencies, which are IME much more likely to interpret the CA PRA's time limits as actually mandatory rather than mere suggestions, and tiny federal agencies for simple requests, because their "FOIA department" is one person's part-time job and they get very few requests.
Neither, please. I'm agender.
You're quite welcome.
It is often a supremely frustrating process, especially since agencies rarely if ever obey the law IME. I've tried to give you the bluntly realistic answer.
The only exceptions that come to mind are CA agencies, which are IME much more likely to interpret the CA PRA's time limits as actually mandatory rather than mere suggestions, and tiny federal agencies for simple requests, because their "FOIA department" is one person's part-time job and they get very few requests.
Blunt and realistic answers about those types of processes are good, at least for me. I really have no idea so it's both helpful and interesting to hear about it from someone who knows what they're talking about.
It's also refreshing to just have a normal, informative exchange in this thread for a moment. ^
Jul 7, 2016, 3:19 pm
#198
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 962
FWIW: In my pending FOIA lawsuit against TSA, https://s.ai/tsa/legal/foia, I need to go through a couple thousand pages of documents in the next 3 weeks, cataloguing all their withholdings etc, cross-referencing documents that are implied to exist and somehow aren't there, noting what's BS and what's maybe reasonable, etc.
This is, frankly, too much work for me to do on my own. TSA took about two years to do it with a whole team of people. I have just me, and one month left, which includes having to research and write a legal brief in opposition, not just compiling the info.
The documents include material relevant to this thread, like policies about how TSA handles disabled people, though it's much broader than just that.
If you're willing to help, please contact me privately.
It doesn't require legal skills. It does require attention to detail, ability to use google spreadsheets, common sense (e.g. noticing that some email got cited, or a document referenced, or reading between the lines to figure out what sort of thing got redacted), and willingness to keep the documents under embargo for now so that I can release them only once I get the best available version and accompany it with analysis.
The documents at issue are partially listed at https://s.ai/foia/#tsa (has most, not all, of documents that I've received at least in part), and mainly listed in the Vaughn document in my first link (which mentions a whole lot of documents that have been withheld in full).
This is, frankly, too much work for me to do on my own. TSA took about two years to do it with a whole team of people. I have just me, and one month left, which includes having to research and write a legal brief in opposition, not just compiling the info.
The documents include material relevant to this thread, like policies about how TSA handles disabled people, though it's much broader than just that.
If you're willing to help, please contact me privately.
It doesn't require legal skills. It does require attention to detail, ability to use google spreadsheets, common sense (e.g. noticing that some email got cited, or a document referenced, or reading between the lines to figure out what sort of thing got redacted), and willingness to keep the documents under embargo for now so that I can release them only once I get the best available version and accompany it with analysis.
The documents at issue are partially listed at https://s.ai/foia/#tsa (has most, not all, of documents that I've received at least in part), and mainly listed in the Vaughn document in my first link (which mentions a whole lot of documents that have been withheld in full).
Jul 7, 2016, 3:23 pm
#199
Moderator: Travel Safety/Security, Travel Tools, California, Los Angeles; FlyerTalk Evangelist
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Moderator's Note:
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TWA884
Travel Safety/Security Co-moderator
Please adhere to the guidelines in the Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate forum's Sticky post:
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Repeat offenders will have their posting privileges suspended without further warnings.
TWA884
Travel Safety/Security Co-moderator
Welcome to Travel Safety/Security’s Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate forum. While this forum permits discussion and civil debate of travel security policy, the FlyerTalk Guidelines & Rules still apply. The moderators will enforce a zero-tolerance policy against personal attacks – against a fellow FTer, TS/S posters in general, or TSA employees as a group. While we don't wish to turn away reflective criticism we do ask that participants refrain from posting behaviors that only serve to inflame or disrupt the forum. Derisive terms used to grossly generalize others such as A. S. S., smurf, goon, thug, Gestapo, Nazi, perv, perp, kettles, gropers, mouth-breathers and the like add no value to the forum and are not permitted.
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TWA884
Travel Safety/Security Co-moderator
12.2 Avoid Getting Personal
Posts have been deleted and/or edited.
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FlyerTalk is a diverse, multi-cultural community. Expressions of prejudice or discrimination in any form are not permitted (such as those concerning race, nationality, religious belief, gender, sexual orientation, age, disability, etc).
If another member gets personal with you, do not retaliate. Retaliation may well subject you to the same discipline. Instead, please use the 'Alert a moderator to this thread' button in the lower-left-hand-corner of each post, send a note explaining your concern to the moderator team, and leave it to them to handle.
If you can't follow these guidelines, this thread will be locked and the next person who violates these guidelines will be suspended for a minimum of a week.
TWA884
Travel Safety/Security Co-moderator
Jul 7, 2016, 3:31 pm
#200
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,735
As you may be aware, I have pending litigation about this. People can ask questions (unless it's police after a Miranda type invocation, but TSA are not police). The problem is when they take some action against you, like delaying you, subjecting you to additional search, confiscating items, assaulting you, etc., if you refuse to answer.
As for delay or extra searches: that's their SOP when they see our medical bag. Last trip they got very excited over my son's Epi pens which were still in the original box with the prescription label on it, but showed up as liquids on their x-ray. The TSA clerk wanted to take them out of the package and "closely examine" one - i.e. contaminate it.
Jul 7, 2016, 4:22 pm
#201
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 962
<redacted by moderator>
I used to carry the formal memorandum about that too.
Nevertheless, it happened to me multiple times at airports throughout the country over a multi year period. Which is why I now have a lawsuit against them for it. https://s.ai/tsa/legal/sfo
Also, if you look at TSA's official response to my complaint (also at that link) — which, btw, they only gave me after I got a court to order them to do so, https://s.ai/tsa/legal/rehab_act — they actually double down. They defend the actions of the TSM at SFO who interrogated me about my liquids and refused to let me travel with them, for reasons so absurd that I suggest you just read for yourself. (It's also veers a bit off topic.)
However, part of their response was — seriously — that though my interpretation of that memorandum was a "literal reading", it was "objectively unreasonable", because of course TSA has to be able to stop people from carrying large amounts of liquids with them (unless they're in separate 3.4 oz bottles), even if they are fully screened by LCS / ETD and determined to not be WEI.
I promise I am not misrepresenting their response; this is what they said in their court-mandated response to me. Read it for yourself.
I hope you stopped them from doing so. They're not allowed to contaminate medical items.
Nevertheless, it happened to me multiple times at airports throughout the country over a multi year period. Which is why I now have a lawsuit against them for it. https://s.ai/tsa/legal/sfo
Also, if you look at TSA's official response to my complaint (also at that link) — which, btw, they only gave me after I got a court to order them to do so, https://s.ai/tsa/legal/rehab_act — they actually double down. They defend the actions of the TSM at SFO who interrogated me about my liquids and refused to let me travel with them, for reasons so absurd that I suggest you just read for yourself. (It's also veers a bit off topic.)
However, part of their response was — seriously — that though my interpretation of that memorandum was a "literal reading", it was "objectively unreasonable", because of course TSA has to be able to stop people from carrying large amounts of liquids with them (unless they're in separate 3.4 oz bottles), even if they are fully screened by LCS / ETD and determined to not be WEI.
I promise I am not misrepresenting their response; this is what they said in their court-mandated response to me. Read it for yourself.
As for delay or extra searches: that's their SOP when they see our medical bag. Last trip they got very excited over my son's Epi pens which were still in the original box with the prescription label on it, but showed up as liquids on their x-ray. The TSA clerk wanted to take them out of the package and "closely examine" one - i.e. contaminate it.
Last edited by TWA884; Jul 7, 2016 at 5:10 pm Reason: Comments on moderation
Jul 7, 2016, 4:43 pm
#202
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,526
Jul 7, 2016, 5:08 pm
#203
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As for delay or extra searches: that's their SOP when they see our medical bag. Last trip they got very excited over my son's Epi pens which were still in the original box with the prescription label on it, but showed up as liquids on their x-ray. The TSA clerk wanted to take them out of the package and "closely examine" one - i.e. contaminate it.
Jul 7, 2016, 5:12 pm
#204
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: California. USA
Posts: 1,404
Woah ! Do you have a link for that? That really scared me. Thankyou.
Last edited by tanja; Jul 7, 2016 at 5:25 pm
Jul 7, 2016, 6:32 pm
#205
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,735
I used to carry the formal memorandum about that too.
Nevertheless, it happened to me multiple times at airports throughout the country over a multi year period. Which is why I now have a lawsuit against them for it. https://s.ai/tsa/legal/sfo
Nevertheless, it happened to me multiple times at airports throughout the country over a multi year period. Which is why I now have a lawsuit against them for it. https://s.ai/tsa/legal/sfo
Don't have time to read all your materials, but best of luck to you with the lawsuits.
Jul 7, 2016, 9:31 pm
#206
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Let's also not forget that the TSA has been subject to much greater OVERSIGHT than the $6-an-hour people were before it. After 9/11 in addition to the much greater level of attention and seriousness the security function received, we also decided someone has to much more aggressively check up on those people. You didn't have to worry so much about "95% failure rate!" headlines being blasted in the old days because there was less oversight and airports would use different contractors anyway, so there was no single entity like TSA to blame (with that as another part of the problem).
It's also often mentioned that those doing the tests know where the vulnerabilities in the system are.
And? The TSA has prevented no terrorist attacks and proven to be a bloated and ineffective gov't agency.
What is your point? You're making a non-sequitur-puesdo-fat-blue-collar-Ed-guy-you-idolized-on-MSNBC sort of argument.
No one is arguing that the screening system before 9/11 was good/adequate. No one is arguing that that the TSA should be dismantled.
No one is arguing that the screening system before 9/11 was good/adequate. No one is arguing that that the TSA should be dismantled.
But what we are saying is that the TSA organization is rotten and in desperate need of serious reform. Right now we play security theatre in the USA and not a week goes by without some story of theft, abuse, or other mischief. We are not any safer because of nude-o-scopes or liquid bans. Honestly, you must be the one who is incredibly tone deaf.
The solution, in my mind, is not privatization. That ship has sailed. But a solution is needed -- that you accept the mediocrity of the TSA is a prime example of why my switch to your side of the aisle will likely never be fully complete. You excuse rancid behavior by throwing up a strawman -- that it was even worse before. Stop making that argument. I'm so sick of hearing it.
The solution, in my mind, is not privatization. That ship has sailed. But a solution is needed -- that you accept the mediocrity of the TSA is a prime example of why my switch to your side of the aisle will likely never be fully complete. You excuse rancid behavior by throwing up a strawman -- that it was even worse before. Stop making that argument. I'm so sick of hearing it.
I just guess I can't repeat enough that whether or not something would have directly prevented 9/11 is not the standard or the point when it comes to the origin of TSA. Whenever there's a major traumatizing event like 9/11 it tends to lead to far-reaching changes, and to think or expect otherwise is to be either naive or dangerously ignorant about American history. Sometimes the changes are positive, like the Titanic leading to a long list of new procedures (not just longer hours for the radio room). Sometimes they're negative, like Pearl Harbor leading to the Japanese internments or 9/11 being used to start the war in Iraq (a much worse outcome than starting the TSA).
Rest assured I've had plenty of encounters personally with the TSA, and they seem to like to inspect my checked bags as well, for some reason (I get a lot of those notes). It's a hassle compared to the 12 years or so I was flying before 9/11, but in having been to countries even before 9/11 that had their own terror wars (the Philippines, Sri Lanka) I "got" what was in store and how the whole security function would be ramped up.
I think it's pretty clear the future will have succeeding generations of "smarter" machines and much slower growth in the number of people with TSA, if there's growth at all.
Last edited by RustyC; Jul 7, 2016 at 9:39 pm
Jul 7, 2016, 10:23 pm
#207
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http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/check...nduct-tsa.html
This thread would suggest that TSA has more than just a few bad apples. Perhaps a contributing factor at MEM.
This thread would suggest that TSA has more than just a few bad apples. Perhaps a contributing factor at MEM.
Jul 7, 2016, 10:26 pm
#208
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http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/check...nduct-tsa.html
This thread would suggest that TSA has more than just a few bad apples. Perhaps a contributing factor at MEM.
This thread would suggest that TSA has more than just a few bad apples. Perhaps a contributing factor at MEM.
vulnerable by background being subjected to bad apples in a way that wouldn't otherwise happen in the same way or with the same frequency.
Jul 15, 2016, 10:55 am
#209
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 962
MEM PD records obtained; more on the way
https://s.ai/tsa/cohen/
CCTV is on the way; I'll upload it to YouTube, update the page above, and post it to my personal G+/Twitter when that happens. (I'll also update this thread.)
Frankly I think the police report / TSA's claims therein are either lies or mischaracterizations. TSA did the same sort of thing with me twice, and both times the video I obtained proved that they had simply lied outright in their written statements
Thanks again to MuckRock for helping with the Tennessee citizenship requirement.
Feel free to share. The link above is the canonical reference and will be kept updated.
CCTV is on the way; I'll upload it to YouTube, update the page above, and post it to my personal G+/Twitter when that happens. (I'll also update this thread.)
Frankly I think the police report / TSA's claims therein are either lies or mischaracterizations. TSA did the same sort of thing with me twice, and both times the video I obtained proved that they had simply lied outright in their written statements
Thanks again to MuckRock for helping with the Tennessee citizenship requirement.
Feel free to share. The link above is the canonical reference and will be kept updated.
Aug 8, 2016, 10:24 am
#210
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA
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Well here you go 6 Year Old Girl Groped By TSA - YouTube
I can't believe it.I know this post is late, but I'm just reading this entire thread, and wow... even if TSA didn't have anything directly to do with the 19-year old being punched, the whole situation could have been avoided by some diplomacy.
I wish I didn't have to read this entire thread and watch the videos on a Monday morning. Ugh. Definitely not a great start to the day, and it's really sad how we've came so low as a nation.