Jul 29, 2014, 10:15 am
Last edit by: Prospero
This thread is dedicated to issues around American Airlines Corporate Security, AAdvantage Fraud division (AKA "Revenue Protection Unit"), and its enforcement of the AAdvantage Terms and Conditions - particularly to selling, buying and bartering awards, miles, upgrades and other instruments - and related issues.
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AA’s eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase one’s chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
Also see AAdvantage Program Terms and Conditions and
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
The typical email from AA Corporate Security can not be addressed by calling AAdvantage Customer Service or other methods - you must reply to the email address given. It likely will look like this:
Excellent summaries of information (based on the sum of experiences we have seen in this thread over time) of how to respond:
From JonNYC, our resident expert on this:
Older posts have been archived to the
archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AA’s eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase one’s chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
E.g. AAdvantage Terms and Conditions excerpt: "At no time may AAdvantage mileage credit or award tickets be purchased, sold, advertised for sale or bartered (including but not limited to transferring, gifting, or promising mileage credit or award tickets in exchange for support of a certain business, product or charity and/or participation in an auction, sweepstakes, raffle or contest). Any such mileage or tickets are void if transferred for cash or other consideration. Violators (including any passenger who uses a purchased or bartered award ticket) may be liable for damages and litigation costs, including American Airlines attorneys’ fees incurred in enforcing this rule." (This extends to other AA instruments such as Systemwide Upgrades, etc., selling of extra AirPass seats or baggage allowance, etc.)
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
<snip>"While you may consider the AAdvantage Miles in your account to be *your* property, they are actually the property of AA, and AA permits you to redeem them within the program rules set by AA. If AA detects any impropriety (real or perceived) in the use of AAdvantage miles, they reserve the right to confiscate the miles and/or close/delete the account."...
My name is Fname Lname, and I am an analyst with American Airlines. One of my responsibilities is investigating possible instances of fraud, misrepresentation, and violations of the General AAdvantage Program Conditions. Today, I’m writing you about your AAdvantage account # XXXXXXXX
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com® in conjunction with your account – and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:·
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, it’s not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com® in conjunction with your account – and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:·
- Passenger name·
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary·
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:·
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles·
- Purchaser contact information, such as:·
- Mailing address·
- Email address·
- Telephone number·
- Website profile name·
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above·
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser·
- Documentation that you received payment
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser·
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above·
- Website profile name·
- Telephone number·
- Email address·
- Mailing address·
- Purchaser contact information, such as:·
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles·
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:·
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary·
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, it’s not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
Blogger Gary Leff: "If you made that mistake and got caught, American usually will go light on first-time offenders provided that they ‘come clean’ and are forthcoming about whom a systemwide was sold to or purchased from and what the terms were. They are most interested in serial brokers and are willing to ‘plea bargain’ with minor offenders to get the Evip-lords. There may be a consequence but it should fall short of account shutdown and forfeiture of miles." Link
I am going to try and provide a summary of the advice. For the record, this is 90% from Jon (JonNYC) and a little bit from other comments and circumstances, I am just trying to provide an easy summary, without all the explanations and reasons. I am happy to have others update/correct.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
Perfect and 100%.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (
), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (
), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
Account audit / blocked / fraud: award / miles / SWU / sale, barter, etc.
Mar 26, 2017, 9:16 am
#211
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,730
Asking for ID is against credit card company policy unless they ask for it with cash transactions also. Basically the credit card companies say you can't do anything different then you would for a cash transaction. In some states it's technically against the law to ask for ID due to discrimination issues. (again unless it would be done with a cash transaction- such as for alcohol)
Of course what is the rules and what is practiced can be entirely different things.
BTW the reason the post office insists on the back being signed is because of what I mentioned. The signature on the back is truly the authorized user.
Regardless, now back to the regularly scheduled AA discussion.
Of course what is the rules and what is practiced can be entirely different things.
BTW the reason the post office insists on the back being signed is because of what I mentioned. The signature on the back is truly the authorized user.
Regardless, now back to the regularly scheduled AA discussion.
Mar 26, 2017, 9:29 am
#212
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: BOS/UTH
Programs: AA LT PLT; QR GLD; Bonvoy LT TIT
Posts: 12,755
This is an interesting idea. I like it.
Not exactly. On the back of AMEX cards, the notation immediately below the signature block says "Cardmember Signature" (I have two different AMEX cards, and they both say "Cardmember Signature").
Moreover, let's be clear on what a signature is. It doesn't matter what the signature says (assuming that it's legible). What matters is who does the signing. So if I sign "Bill Jones" in the signature block, it's still my signature, even though my name is not Bill Jones.
BTW the name on the front is not always the authorized user. It's normally the name of the person the card was issued to. They then can give the card to whomever they wish. The person then becomes the authorized user by signing the back of the card. This is why the back say Authorized user's signature and not Cardholders signature.
Moreover, let's be clear on what a signature is. It doesn't matter what the signature says (assuming that it's legible). What matters is who does the signing. So if I sign "Bill Jones" in the signature block, it's still my signature, even though my name is not Bill Jones.
Mar 26, 2017, 11:40 am
#213
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: SLC/HEL/Anywhere with a Beach
Programs: Marriott Ambassador; AA EXP 3MM; AS MVP, Hilton Gold, CH-47/UH-60/C-23/C-130 VET
Posts: 5,234
Mar 26, 2017, 11:41 am
#214
Join Date: May 2005
Location: PHX
Programs: AA Gold, WN A+ & CP, HH Diamond, Hyatt Platinum, National Executive Elite
Posts: 3,246
BTW the name on the front is not always the authorized user. It's normally the name of the person the card was issued to. They then can give the card to whomever they wish. The person then becomes the authorized user by signing the back of the card. This is why the back say Authorized user's signature and not Cardholders signature.
Except most credit cards say "not valid unless signed" or words to that effect. So writing "See ID" when it says not valid unless signed should be refused by the merchant.
Mar 26, 2017, 11:51 am
#215
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Global
Posts: 5,998
A mark or sign made by an individual on an instrument or document to signify knowledge, approval, acceptance, or obligation.
(Source: various legal books, but, this definition comes from the legal dictionary.)
Mar 26, 2017, 11:56 am
#216
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: SLC/HEL/Anywhere with a Beach
Programs: Marriott Ambassador; AA EXP 3MM; AS MVP, Hilton Gold, CH-47/UH-60/C-23/C-130 VET
Posts: 5,234
Yes ... this was the one on topic from ... surprise surprise, a OTP who has never returned.
Mar 26, 2017, 12:21 pm
#217
Join Date: May 2005
Location: PHX
Programs: AA Gold, WN A+ & CP, HH Diamond, Hyatt Platinum, National Executive Elite
Posts: 3,246
I hate to continue this side track, but, 'See ID' signed by the authorized user is, in fact, legally speaking a "signature".
A mark or sign made by an individual on an instrument or document to signify knowledge, approval, acceptance, or obligation.
(Source: various legal books, but, this definition comes from the legal dictionary.)
A mark or sign made by an individual on an instrument or document to signify knowledge, approval, acceptance, or obligation.
(Source: various legal books, but, this definition comes from the legal dictionary.)
Mar 26, 2017, 5:52 pm
#219
Moderator: American AAdvantage
Join Date: May 2000
Location: NorCal - SMF area
Programs: AA LT Plat; HH LT Diamond, Maître-plongeur des Muccis
Posts: 62,948
May we now return to the topic at hand? We are receiving complaints from readers of this thread.
Thank you,
Moderator
Thank you,
Moderator
Apr 30, 2017, 7:02 pm
#220
Join Date: Aug 2004
Programs: AA (EP), Hilton (Diamond), Marriott Bonvoy (Titanium)
Posts: 8,937
Oh, indubitably.
The main problem here - and one you still don't seem to recognize - is that you fed AA a few lines of complete junk. They asked specific questions and most of your responses were along the lines of "you know that already". You don't (or didn't) need to lie to AA, you just needed to provide them with a clear explanation and take some ownership/responsibility for the situation.
In one case, I don't think we ever got the full story, but I remember it involved a poster trying to get back to the US from South America. In another case, a fellow poster had his account accessed without permission. He proactively contacted AA but was subsequently put in lockdown mode by corp security. In both cases, the affected members maintained their composure, cooperated fully, and provided what details they could. I believe both of these cases were resolved within a few days.
It's absolutely astounding to me the kinds of "first answers" that some folks try sending in. Often incorporating almost -all- of the items from the "do NOT do" list above; obfuscation, DYKWIA, condescension, insanely obvious truth-twisting, trial-ballon straw-men blaming, threats (of "taking business elsewhere") and, as damning as all of those, insulting, slippery vagueness.
It's as if they think that they're dealing with some moron on the other side and are thinking they can out-fox them and have a "why admit until I know what they know?" approach. Fail every time.
It's as if they think that they're dealing with some moron on the other side and are thinking they can out-fox them and have a "why admit until I know what they know?" approach. Fail every time.
I've given away awards, SWU etc. over he years and have never had problems. Otoh, I've go nothing to hide, there has been absolutely no quid pro quo and if they asked the recipients their responses will be honest (and of course neither I nor they deal with brokers).
In fact I often tell the agent exactly what I'm doing while I'm booking.
In fact I often tell the agent exactly what I'm doing while I'm booking.
May 22, 2017, 6:10 pm
#221
Formerly known as billinaz
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Goodyear,AZ for now then FL Spacecoast
Programs: US Airways Dividend Miles, American AAdvantage, Avis Preferred, Budget Rapid Rez, Hilton Honors
Posts: 1,145
Agree with JonNYC-
It reminds me of when my kid does something wrong and I already know the answer, but pretend I don't have all the info to fully understand the situation and ask him about it. When AA contacts you about fraud, they most likely have everything they need and just need you to formally answer so you can't come back and say I don't know why they shut my account down.
It reminds me of when my kid does something wrong and I already know the answer, but pretend I don't have all the info to fully understand the situation and ask him about it. When AA contacts you about fraud, they most likely have everything they need and just need you to formally answer so you can't come back and say I don't know why they shut my account down.
The most basic LE investigation is always the same. Interview the suspect last. You already have all the information on the incident, and all the evidence available has been obtained.
Now its time to lock them into a story, and then note how many things they change.
You only have ONE chance when you are being interviewed by someone who does just that for a living. Be honest and completely honest with your answers.
Non responsive, misleading, evasive, incomplete, answers are a sure sign of deception.
Take that FWIW from someone who sits on the other side of the table.
May 22, 2017, 6:16 pm
#222
Formerly known as billinaz
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Goodyear,AZ for now then FL Spacecoast
Programs: US Airways Dividend Miles, American AAdvantage, Avis Preferred, Budget Rapid Rez, Hilton Honors
Posts: 1,145
There are a lot of people who think they are the only smart people in the world, that everyone else is an idiot. (I have a former coworker who was like that, who loves forwarding email jokes whose premise is always how stupid everyone is.) There are people in high elective office who seem proud of such an attitude. I've dealt with front office staff at doctors and dentists who are like that.
The ones you have to worry about show no remorse and no caring for their illegal acts.
Jun 30, 2017, 7:08 am
#224
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: JFK, DCA, BUR, YVR
Programs: AC, AS, BA, DL, HH (D), MR (T/LTP), UA (*S), UScAAre (PLT/1,87MM), WN
Posts: 5,207
Jun 30, 2017, 7:11 am
#225
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Global
Posts: 5,998