United COO to employees: Consider voluntary separation / New 2021 separation program
#91
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2000
Location: TPA for now. Hopefully LIS for retirement
Posts: 13,707
A grim view from the F/A world yesterday (
In an effort to project what our current situation means for the future of Inflight, John [Slater, UA VP of Inflight Services] painted a picture of our future using terms unique to us as Flight Attendants:
- Reduced international flying.
- Most of our schedules, 80%, will consist of domestic flying
- Reduction in the number of lines
- Reduction in language and International Purser qualified flying
- Staffing of flights based on FAA minimums
- An expectation of minimal passenger volumes
- Reduced flying will result in a reduced number of schedules
- Greater seniority will be required to hold lines
- Reserve status set at a higher seniority – likely 20 years or more, depending on where you are based
- Fewer lines built at the contractual maximum (88 hour average) – which allows time to be concentrated in fewer lines with the result being a further reduction in the need for Flight Attendants
- Fewer Reserves = less flexibility and reduced opportunities for discretionary time away from work.
- Changes to Inflight bases – as is done on an ongoing basis, all domicile locations will be evaluated for their financial efficacy. Given what is expected to be a significant reduction in the schedule of the airline, some base locations may now not make financial sense. All base locations are under scrutiny.
- Some bases may close while other bases may see significant reductions in size based on a reduced operational need or network flight schedule.
- A smaller domestic route structure will make commuting far more difficult, if not impossible. The result may be the need to relocate and to establish an alternate residence especially for those who may now be faced with Reserve status.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; May 7, 2020 at 12:05 pm Reason: fixed quote
#92
Join Date: Dec 2014
Programs: UA GS ,QF Plat
Posts: 686
The labor law point is interesting re base,a number FA's commute to base not necessarily from in country, I knew a lovely lady who was LHR based but lived in Sardinia and have a friend who is FRA based and commutes from the South of France. I am sure that is made clear in the employment contracts. Whatever ,it is a terrible situation, I posted to excerpts from a conversation I had with my FRA based friend in another thread who's viewpoint was based on seniority that the ex CO cadre would be hit hardest in any cuts. Hopefully some of those closer or beyond retirement who use it as a hobby job will look kindly on their less senior colleagues and take a package.
#93
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New York, NY
Programs: UA, AA, DL, Hertz, Avis, National, Hyatt, Hilton, SPG, Marriott
Posts: 9,454
The VSPs will have deal sweeteners when fully announced, and will be built off the back of what was available last month - all based on years of service on a sliding scale, including X months of continuing no-cost health coverage, X years of continuing non-revenue travel benefits at current boarding seniority for you and family, etc. In an involuntary situation in the fall, those won’t be extended or not be as generous - you’ll face expensive COBRA premiums for healthcare, and travel benefits will end except if within a few years of retirement.
What happens with FA base closures will be interesting. CLE and the new satellite bases are more certain candidates for closure. Logic would say all international bases (LHR/FRA/NRT/HKG) would go with reduced schedules, but there are economic reasons to keep them (cheaper US layovers), as well as tough severance labor laws (Germany/Japan) that make them harder to execute. I can’t see any FAs hired in the last few years post-merger making it through, regardless of base - and with them having lower comp levels than Senior FAs, the cut may be deeper to hit the number they are looking for, while increasing average flying hours for those that remain. My friends with 20 years of seniority are expecting to go back on Reserve, mostly Domestic.
Velocity of all this crazy/sad and understandably shocking to employees.
What happens with FA base closures will be interesting. CLE and the new satellite bases are more certain candidates for closure. Logic would say all international bases (LHR/FRA/NRT/HKG) would go with reduced schedules, but there are economic reasons to keep them (cheaper US layovers), as well as tough severance labor laws (Germany/Japan) that make them harder to execute. I can’t see any FAs hired in the last few years post-merger making it through, regardless of base - and with them having lower comp levels than Senior FAs, the cut may be deeper to hit the number they are looking for, while increasing average flying hours for those that remain. My friends with 20 years of seniority are expecting to go back on Reserve, mostly Domestic.
Velocity of all this crazy/sad and understandably shocking to employees.
A grim view from the F/A world yesterday (I don't know why it is being split into two separate quotes when I post):
#94
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: OH
Programs: AA Lifetime Plat, Marriot Lifetime Gold
Posts: 9,539
Pensions are not very common these days and becoming increasingly less common. They were designed for lifetime employees, which is also increasingly less common. People today need to develop the discipline to save for retirement, 401K's are only one option for how to save. I know this is an unpopular reality but it's unlikely pensions are coming back and relying on only on social security or doing nothing isn't really a good plan.
#95
Join Date: Dec 2014
Programs: UA GS ,QF Plat
Posts: 686
Apologies for being thick on my understanding, are you (they) saying that no one at these bases will fly in June meaning all crews will be ex US ??
#96
Join Date: Mar 2017
Programs: Does Non Rev count?
Posts: 588
So, if a pilot lost his or her job with an airline, can't find a flying job for a long time and loses the certification, does it put the person at a disadvantage competing with others who are current?
If the airlines can have their pick when things pick up, they would put those who are current, right? Or, it does not matter since the pilots have to go through the training for the new airline anyway?
If the airlines can have their pick when things pick up, they would put those who are current, right? Or, it does not matter since the pilots have to go through the training for the new airline anyway?
#97
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New York, NY
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If the company is planning on being roughly 80% domestic and 20% international (in terms of capacity), in addition to being a smaller airline overall, that's a tremendous hit to the international network and I can anticipate the overseas domiciles being deemed redundant. Note there are contractual procedures for furlough and base closure.
#98
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: BNA
Programs: HH Gold. (Former) UA PP, DL PM, PC Plat
Posts: 8,185
Currency doesn't not transfer to a new airline. I you go to a new airline, or a new aircraft or seat at your current airline, you do a full qualification course.
does it put the person at a disadvantage competing with others who are current?
When looking for a job, currency doesn't transfer but if someone hasn't flown at all in some time there may be a concern with how ready their are for training. This is more of a concern for younger, less experienced pilots than with those with many years of experience who have already proved their ability to suceed in training.
#99
Join Date: Dec 2014
Programs: UA GS ,QF Plat
Posts: 686
Correct. There are no trips in the May or June schedule built to be staffed with flight attendants from those bases, plus CLE and AUS (satellite). There is limited ability for FAs to pick up trips out-of-base, but I doubt there will be many opportunities to do so.
If the company is planning on being roughly 80% domestic and 20% international (in terms of capacity), in addition to being a smaller airline overall, that's a tremendous hit to the international network and I can anticipate the overseas domiciles being deemed redundant. Note there are contractual procedures for furlough and base closure.
If the company is planning on being roughly 80% domestic and 20% international (in terms of capacity), in addition to being a smaller airline overall, that's a tremendous hit to the international network and I can anticipate the overseas domiciles being deemed redundant. Note there are contractual procedures for furlough and base closure.
#100
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New York, NY
Programs: UA, AA, DL, Hertz, Avis, National, Hyatt, Hilton, SPG, Marriott
Posts: 9,454
Yes, sadly I think the business case for international bases is significantly diminished in view of the expected reduction in international flying. The FA contract provides a furlough and domicile closure/displacement procedure, but it's not likely a transfer to a domestic base would be viable for most FAs in the international bases, even if seniority permits. Issues like residency, work visas, etc. would be an administrative headache for non-US nationals.
#101
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: CLE
Programs: UA
Posts: 289
Sad all news around, for sure, but I’m especially saddened to see CLE IFS Base on the list. Could shutter so suddenly. Some great folks based in CLE! Of course, I’m a bit biased 😁
#102
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 9
I was outsourced back in 2014 , along with MANY other employees at line stations ,after decades of service . One person in my station had 40 years of service . These were good middle class jobs etc . There was NO huge outcry from anyone in the company. Just the usual ,” We are doing this too save money, efficiency blah blah blah “. Guess that didn’t work .On the contrary we were treated as disposable. Local Management was beyond vindictive . I remember pilots & FA being totally nonchalant, with that attitude , tough luck , or “ You’ll find something else “ IAH employees came up to train our replacements. Just remember kids, Karma happens. You don’t know when or under what circumstances, but they WILL make an appearance. Just never think that something life changing won’t happen to you
Last edited by Dontaskdontell; May 10, 2020 at 8:06 am
#103
Join Date: Mar 2017
Programs: Does Non Rev count?
Posts: 588
I was outsourced back in 2014 , along with MANY other employees at line stations ,after decades of service . One person in my station had 40 years of service . These were good middle class jobs etc . There was NO huge outcry from anyone in the company. Just the usual ,” We are doing this too save money, efficiency blah blah blah “. Guess that didn’t work .On the contrary we were treated as disposable. Local Management was beyond vindictive . I remember pilots & FA being totally nonchalant, with that attitude , tough luck , or “ You’ll find something else “ IAH employees came up to train our replacements. Just remember kids, Karma happens. You don’t know when or under what circumstances, but they WILL make an appearance. Just never think that something life changing won’t happen to you
Last edited by 757FO; May 10, 2020 at 10:35 am Reason: Typo
#104
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,324
I was outsourced back in 2014 , along with MANY other employees at line stations ,after decades of service . One person in my station had 40 years of service . These were good middle class jobs etc . There was NO huge outcry from anyone in the company. Just the usual ,” We are doing this too save money, efficiency blah blah blah “. Guess that didn’t work .On the contrary we were treated as disposable. Local Management was beyond vindictive . I remember pilots & FA being totally nonchalant, with that attitude , tough luck , or “ You’ll find something else “ IAH employees came up to train our replacements. Just remember kids, Karma happens. You don’t know when or under what circumstances, but they WILL make an appearance. Just never think that something life changing won’t happen to you
Also, the economy in 2014 was in no way similar to the one that we are currently in. To cheer on the impending job losses coming under the guise of Karma is something I can't subscribe to. We should all support one another right now, in my opinion.
#105
Join Date: Mar 2017
Programs: Does Non Rev count?
Posts: 588
This is not true. The unions had no leverage to do much at this point, and the general consensus was this was terrible. I am sorry you had a bad experience and had this idea in your mind that nobody cared - I would say that is false.
Also, the economy in 2014 was in no way similar to the one that we are currently in. To cheer on the impending job losses coming under the guise of Karma is something I can't subscribe to. We should all support one another right now, in my opinion.
Also, the economy in 2014 was in no way similar to the one that we are currently in. To cheer on the impending job losses coming under the guise of Karma is something I can't subscribe to. We should all support one another right now, in my opinion.