Does UA creates confusion of benefit "ownership" by making offers to "sell" miles?
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: CLE
Programs: UA GS+LT UC, AA EXP+LT PLT, Fairmont LT PLT, Marriott PLT, Hilton DIA, Hyatt Glob, Avis CHM
Posts: 4,671
Does UA creates confusion of benefit "ownership" by making offers to "sell" miles?
...
HOWEVER, common sense would dictate that it is questionable to do so.
If I sell something on eBay I make sure I actually own the item I'm selling; and selling a UA cert would certainly raise a huge "Hmmm, is this even allowed?" flag, even if I didn't know the rules.
Again, common sense!
HOWEVER, common sense would dictate that it is questionable to do so.
If I sell something on eBay I make sure I actually own the item I'm selling; and selling a UA cert would certainly raise a huge "Hmmm, is this even allowed?" flag, even if I didn't know the rules.
Again, common sense!
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Dec 30, 2019 at 11:47 am Reason: starting new thread
#2
Join Date: May 2010
Location: AVP & PEK
Programs: UA 1K 1.9MM
Posts: 6,355
Pretty much exactly because of that: "I" earned the benefit, and it's in my name. It seems just logical that passing that benefit on to someone else requires at least some rudimentary ascertainment of whether that's allowed or not.
#3
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
Sure, and those same people are then reporting the income from the sale and then paying the taxes due because their basis in the cert is $0. That seems common sense too. But, this is all about selective common sense.
The problem with that is everyone claims that there is something which ought to be more prominent, e.g. change fees, bag fees, refundability, stopovers, and so on. Whatever it is that somebody could not be bothered to read ought to have been more prominent.
That leads to the problem that if everything is prominent, nothing is prominent.
Yes agreed. It was just pointed out that by the "letter of the law", UA has no responsibility even if an account gets hacked through no fault of the owner. I agree, in the history, it has not been an issue.
As for UA providing a warning/reminder, I absolutely thing they should make the "no selling, bartering, etc of miles/instruments" rule fare more prominent. There have been a number of people who were unaware of the rules. I have encountered a number of GS's that didn't even know. Ignorance is no excuse but if the punishment is so severe, UA should do a better job of informing. By comparison, There are giant messages during booking, checkin, posters at the airport about the baggage policy, and the punishment for the crime is a slap on the wrist (checking of bag, no extra charges). The rule about selling instruments is "buried" in the fine print and the punishment is loss of all miles, instruments, vouchers.
As for UA providing a warning/reminder, I absolutely thing they should make the "no selling, bartering, etc of miles/instruments" rule fare more prominent. There have been a number of people who were unaware of the rules. I have encountered a number of GS's that didn't even know. Ignorance is no excuse but if the punishment is so severe, UA should do a better job of informing. By comparison, There are giant messages during booking, checkin, posters at the airport about the baggage policy, and the punishment for the crime is a slap on the wrist (checking of bag, no extra charges). The rule about selling instruments is "buried" in the fine print and the punishment is loss of all miles, instruments, vouchers.
That leads to the problem that if everything is prominent, nothing is prominent.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Dec 22, 2019 at 1:18 pm Reason: merged consecutive posts by same member
#4
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SFO
Programs: AC SE MM, BA Gold, SQ Silver, Bonvoy Tit LTG, Hyatt Glob, HH Diamond
Posts: 44,346
The problem with that is everyone claims that there is something which ought to be more prominent, e.g. change fees, bag fees, refundability, stopovers, and so on. Whatever it is that somebody could not be bothered to read ought to have been more prominent.
That leads to the problem that if everything is prominent, nothing is prominent.
That leads to the problem that if everything is prominent, nothing is prominent.
I'm curious about more details here though. Was a post with "please email [email protected]", with that email on the MP account, sufficient for termination? Because as someone else mentioned, that seems like a really easy way to get back at someone you don't like.
#5
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: CLE
Programs: UA GS+LT UC, AA EXP+LT PLT, Fairmont LT PLT, Marriott PLT, Hilton DIA, Hyatt Glob, Avis CHM
Posts: 4,671
FTers know the rules and it seems logical to us once we know them. The 99% don't and are surprised that there are restrictions. It seems reasonable for airlines to display warnings rather than post-facto reference terms that nobody but their lawyers and a few FTers have read. But for whatever reason they don't and they're willing to fire their best customers over violating those rules.
#6
Join Date: Jun 2014
Programs: UA MM
Posts: 4,126
What else on Earth can you earn and not be able to sell?
FTers know the rules and it seems logical to us once we know them. The 99% don't and are surprised that there are restrictions. It seems reasonable for airlines to display warnings rather than post-facto reference terms that nobody but their lawyers and a few FTers have read. But for whatever reason they don't and they're willing to fire their best customers over violating those rules.
FTers know the rules and it seems logical to us once we know them. The 99% don't and are surprised that there are restrictions. It seems reasonable for airlines to display warnings rather than post-facto reference terms that nobody but their lawyers and a few FTers have read. But for whatever reason they don't and they're willing to fire their best customers over violating those rules.
#7
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2000
Location: TPA for now. Hopefully LIS for retirement
Posts: 13,705
#8
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: PHL
Programs: UA 1K 1MM, Marriott Gold, IHG Platinum, Raddison Platinum, Avis Presidents Club
Posts: 5,271
Sure, and those same people are then reporting the income from the sale and then paying the taxes due because their basis in the cert is $0. That seems common sense too. But, this is all about selective common sense.
It
The problem with that is everyone claims that there is something which ought to be more prominent, e.g. change fees, bag fees, refundability, stopovers, and so on. Whatever it is that somebody could not be bothered to read ought to have been more prominent.
That leads to the problem that if everything is prominent, nothing is prominent.
It
The problem with that is everyone claims that there is something which ought to be more prominent, e.g. change fees, bag fees, refundability, stopovers, and so on. Whatever it is that somebody could not be bothered to read ought to have been more prominent.
That leads to the problem that if everything is prominent, nothing is prominent.
I think most people, even once a year flyers are aware of the existence of bag fees, change fees/refundability, and what stopovers are. They may not know the exact amount of the fee but if they wanted to know, the would naturally go looking for the information or ask. You see it in the news all the time about fees. The penalty for not knowing about it is pretty small.
Selling of miles/instruments is different. No one talks about it, no one knows about it and the penalty is potentially huge.
Most people who are unaware of the rule will say "They're my miles, I earned them, why can't I sell them?" That makes alot of sense to me and is an easy conclusion to make for someone who has not specifically looked for the rules. People don't generally go looking for rules for "common sense" items.
#9
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CLE, DCA, and 30k feet
Programs: Honors LT Diamond; United 1K; Hertz PC
Posts: 4,165
But any number of vouchers, coupons, benefits are non transferrable -- theme park tickets, rebates-in-the-form-of-discounts for retailer reward programs, sick time, most software, anything you've purchased from iTunes... The difference is those either a transfer is not (readily) possible or the people controlling those benefits figure its such a de minims issue that it's not worth (regularly) enforcing. This is a case where the mechanism is easy and the organization owning the benefit has decided its worth enforcing the terms.
#10
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: MBS/FNT/LAN
Programs: UA 1K, HH Gold, Mariott Gold
Posts: 9,630
Prescription drugs? (some are paid for, but in many instances they are "earned" because of varying health programs)
uggg.. Yea, I think your doomed. I think it was mentioned above, but my only reply would be to write back and throw yourself on the mercy of UA. Tell them you would accept any other punishment if you can keep your account, including temporary ban, forfeiture of other miles/certs, limited benefits, etc. I agree the suggesting "better" security is not the way to go.
I didn't see it mentioned to you but DO NOT open a new account with just a different address or name, up-thread UA has caught several and quickly closed their new account.
uggg.. Yea, I think your doomed. I think it was mentioned above, but my only reply would be to write back and throw yourself on the mercy of UA. Tell them you would accept any other punishment if you can keep your account, including temporary ban, forfeiture of other miles/certs, limited benefits, etc. I agree the suggesting "better" security is not the way to go.
I didn't see it mentioned to you but DO NOT open a new account with just a different address or name, up-thread UA has caught several and quickly closed their new account.
#11
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: HND, NRT
Programs: UA Gold (1K 2016–2023 by miracle extensions; RIP 1K status), 1MM
Posts: 220
A friend was Plat for a year or two before I figured out she didn't know she had RPUs. She only accessed her account on her phone and the iPhone app until verrrry recently didn't make RPUs and GPUs at all easy to find. I'm sure there are plenty of semi-frequent fliers who don't understand the status system at all.
#12
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
If you want to run around checking boxes which say, "I have read and understood the terms and conditions [at this link] and then not read them, that is a choice you make.
If you want to provide your credentials to someone without having them read those t&x, then that is a choice you make.
Whether OP's wife knew that she was defrauding UA or not is irrelevant. Simply the product of risks which OP and then his wife took.
If you want to provide your credentials to someone without having them read those t&x, then that is a choice you make.
Whether OP's wife knew that she was defrauding UA or not is irrelevant. Simply the product of risks which OP and then his wife took.
#13
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Canada, USA, Europe
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 31,452
What else on Earth can you earn and not be able to sell?
FTers know the rules and it seems logical to us once we know them. The 99% don't and are surprised that there are restrictions. It seems reasonable for airlines to display warnings rather than post-facto reference terms that nobody but their lawyers and a few FTers have read. But for whatever reason they don't and they're willing to fire their best customers over violating those rules.
FTers know the rules and it seems logical to us once we know them. The 99% don't and are surprised that there are restrictions. It seems reasonable for airlines to display warnings rather than post-facto reference terms that nobody but their lawyers and a few FTers have read. But for whatever reason they don't and they're willing to fire their best customers over violating those rules.
#14
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: RNO
Programs: AA/DL/UA
Posts: 10,775
I've met many people who are unaware that they can't sell their miles. I don't think I've met anyone that didnt know that there are fees to change their flight or check a bag.
I think most people, even once a year flyers are aware of the existence of bag fees, change fees/refundability, and what stopovers are. They may not know the exact amount of the fee but if they wanted to know, the would naturally go looking for the information or ask. You see it in the news all the time about fees. The penalty for not knowing about it is pretty small.
Selling of miles/instruments is different. No one talks about it, no one knows about it and the penalty is potentially huge.
Most people who are unaware of the rule will say "They're my miles, I earned them, why can't I sell them?" That makes alot of sense to me and is an easy conclusion to make for someone who has not specifically looked for the rules. People don't generally go looking for rules for "common sense" items.
I think most people, even once a year flyers are aware of the existence of bag fees, change fees/refundability, and what stopovers are. They may not know the exact amount of the fee but if they wanted to know, the would naturally go looking for the information or ask. You see it in the news all the time about fees. The penalty for not knowing about it is pretty small.
Selling of miles/instruments is different. No one talks about it, no one knows about it and the penalty is potentially huge.
Most people who are unaware of the rule will say "They're my miles, I earned them, why can't I sell them?" That makes alot of sense to me and is an easy conclusion to make for someone who has not specifically looked for the rules. People don't generally go looking for rules for "common sense" items.
#15
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,358
Closing one's MP account on a first offense is a little harsh, especially as from reading the reports, quite a few of them seem legitimately unaware of the consequences.
HOWEVER, common sense would dictate that it is questionable to do so.
If I sell something on eBay I make sure I actually own the item I'm selling; and selling a UA cert would certainly raise a huge "Hmmm, is this even allowed?" flag, even if I didn't know the rules.
Again, common sense!
HOWEVER, common sense would dictate that it is questionable to do so.
If I sell something on eBay I make sure I actually own the item I'm selling; and selling a UA cert would certainly raise a huge "Hmmm, is this even allowed?" flag, even if I didn't know the rules.
Again, common sense!
Warnings or more notifications by UA should be given considering the outcome for a violation is so severe.