Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > United Airlines | MileagePlus
Reload this Page >

Man pulled off of overbooked flight UA3411 (ORD-SDF) 9 Apr 2017 {Settlement reached}

Community
Wiki Posts
Search
Old Apr 10, 2017, 8:42 pm
FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides
Last edit by: WineCountryUA
WELCOME, THREAD GUIDELINES and SUMMARY PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING

If you are new to us, welcome to FlyerTalk! Who we are: FlyerTalk features discussions and chat boards that cover the most up-to-date traveler information; an interactive community dedicated to the topic of travel (not politics or arguments about politics or religion, etc. – those discussion are best in the OMNI forum)

The incident discussed in this thread has touched a nerve for many, and many posters are passionate about their opinions and concerns. However we should still have a civil and respectful discussion of this topic. This is because FlyerTalk is meant to be a friendly, helpful, and collegial community. (Rule 12.)

1. The normal FlyerTalk Rules apply. (Including not discussing moderation actions in thread). Please be particularly attentive to "discussing the idea and not the poster" when you have a disagreement. Civility and mutual respect are still expected and are what we owe each other as a community.

2. You are expected to respect the FlyerTalk community's diversity, and therefore refrain from posting inflammatory comments about race, religion, culture, politics, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. Do not cite, copy, or report on such.

3. While you can disagree with an opinion, the holder of that opinion has the same right to their opinion as you have to yours. We request all to respect that and disagree or discuss their point of views without getting overly personal and without attacking the other poster(s). This is expected as a requirement in FT Rule 12.

4. Overly exaggerative posts as well as posts with information that has been posted several times previously may be summarily deleted.

5. In addition, those who repeatedly fail to comply with FlyerTalk Rules, may be subjected to FlyerTalk disciplinary actions and, e.g., have membership privileges suspended, or masked from this forum.

If you have questions about the Rules or concerns about what another has posted in this or other threads in this forum, please do not post about that. Rather, notify the moderators by using the alert symbol within each post or email or send a private message to us moderators.

Let’s have this discussion in a way that, when we look back on it, we can be proud of how we handled ourselves as a community.

The United Moderator team:
J.Edward
l'etoile
Ocn Vw 1K
Pat89339
WineCountryUA

N.B. PLEASE do not alter the contents of this moderator note
Statement from United Airlines Regarding Resolution with Dr. David Dao - released 27 April 2017
CHICAGO, April 27, 2017 /PRNewswire/ -- We are pleased to report that United and Dr. Dao have reached an amicable resolution of the unfortunate incident that occurred aboard flight 3411. We look forward to implementing the improvements we have announced, which will put our customers at the center of everything we do.
DOT findings related to the UA3411 9 April 2017 IDB incident 12 May 2017

What facts do we know?
  • UA3411, operated by Republic Airways, ORD-SDF on Sunday, April 9, 2017. UA3411 was the second to last flight to SDF for United. AA3509 and UA4771 were the two remaining departures for the day. Also, AA and DL had connecting options providing for same-day arrival in SDF.
  • After the flight was fully boarded, United determined four seats were needed to accommodate crew to SDF for a flight on Monday.
  • United solicited volunteers for VDB. (BUT stopped at $800 in UA$s, not cash). Chose not to go to the levels such as 1350 that airlines have been known to go even in case of weather impacted disruption)
  • After receiving no volunteers for $800 vouchers, a passenger volunteered for $1,600 and was "laughed at" and refused, United determined four passengers to be removed from the flight.
  • One passenger refused and Chicago Aviation Security Officers were called to forcibly remove the passenger.
  • The passenger hit the armrest in the aisle and received a concussion, a broken nose, a bloodied lip, and the loss of two teeth.
  • After being removed from the plane, the passenger re-boarded saying "I need to go home" repeatedly, before being removed again.
  • United spokesman Jonathan Guerin said the flight was sold out — but not oversold. Instead, United and regional affiliate Republic Airlines – the unit that operated Flight 3411 – decided they had to remove four passengers from the flight to accommodate crewmembers who were needed in Louisville the next day for a “downline connection.”

United Express Flight 3411 Review and Action Report - released 27 April 2017

Videos

Internal Communication by Oscar Munoz
Oscar Munoz sent an internal communication to UA employees (sources: View From The Wing, Chicago Tribune):
Dear Team,

Like you, I was upset to see and hear about what happened last night aboard United Express Flight 3411 headed from Chicago to Louisville. While the facts and circumstances are still evolving, especially with respect to why this customer defied Chicago Aviation Security Officers the way he did, to give you a clearer picture of what transpired, I've included below a recap from the preliminary reports filed by our employees.

As you will read, this situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact Chicago Aviation Security Officers to help. Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.

I do, however, believe there are lessons we can learn from this experience, and we are taking a close look at the circumstances surrounding this incident. Treating our customers and each other with respect and dignity is at the core of who we are, and we must always remember this no matter how challenging the situation.

Oscar

Summary of Flight 3411
  • On Sunday, April 9, after United Express Flight 3411 was fully boarded, United's gate agents were approached by crewmembers that were told they needed to board the flight.
  • We sought volunteers and then followed our involuntary denial of boarding process (including offering up to $1,000 in compensation) and when we approached one of these passengers to explain apologetically that he was being denied boarding, he raised his voice and refused to comply with crew member instructions.
  • He was approached a few more times after that in order to gain his compliance to come off the aircraft, and each time he refused and became more and more disruptive and belligerent.
  • Our agents were left with no choice but to call Chicago Aviation Security Officers to assist in removing the customer from the flight. He repeatedly declined to leave.
  • Chicago Aviation Security Officers were unable to gain his cooperation and physically removed him from the flight as he continued to resist - running back onto the aircraft in defiance of both our crew and security officials.
Email sent to all employees at 2:08PM on Tuesday, April 11.
Dear Team,

The truly horrific event that occurred on this flight has elicited many responses from all of us: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments, and one above all: my deepest apologies for what happened. Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard. No one should ever be mistreated this way.

I want you to know that we take full responsibility and we will work to make it right.

It’s never too late to do the right thing. I have committed to our customers and our employees that we are going to fix what’s broken so this never happens again. This will include a thorough review of crew movement, our policies for incentivizing volunteers in these situations, how we handle oversold situations and an examination of how we partner with airport authorities and local law enforcement. We’ll communicate the results of our review by April 30th.

I promise you we will do better.

Sincerely,

Oscar
Statement to customers - 27 April 2017
Each flight you take with us represents an important promise we make to you, our customer. It's not simply that we make sure you reach your destination safely and on time, but also that you will be treated with the highest level of service and the deepest sense of dignity and respect.

Earlier this month, we broke that trust when a passenger was forcibly removed from one of our planes. We can never say we are sorry enough for what occurred, but we also know meaningful actions will speak louder than words.

For the past several weeks, we have been urgently working to answer two questions: How did this happen, and how can we do our best to ensure this never happens again?

It happened because our corporate policies were placed ahead of our shared values. Our procedures got in the way of our employees doing what they know is right.

Fixing that problem starts now with changing how we fly, serve and respect our customers. This is a turning point for all of us here at United – and as CEO, it's my responsibility to make sure that we learn from this experience and redouble our efforts to put our customers at the center of everything we do.

That’s why we announced that we will no longer ask law enforcement to remove customers from a flight and customers will not be required to give up their seat once on board – except in matters of safety or security.

We also know that despite our best efforts, when things don’t go the way they should, we need to be there for you to make things right. There are several new ways we’re going to do just that.

We will increase incentives for voluntary rebooking up to $10,000 and will be eliminating the red tape on permanently lost bags with a new "no-questions-asked" $1,500 reimbursement policy. We will also be rolling out a new app for our employees that will enable them to provide on-the-spot goodwill gestures in the form of miles, travel credit and other amenities when your experience with us misses the mark. You can learn more about these commitments and many other changes at hub.united.com.

While these actions are important, I have found myself reflecting more broadly on the role we play and the responsibilities we have to you and the communities we serve.

I believe we must go further in redefining what United's corporate citizenship looks like in our society. If our chief good as a company is only getting you to and from your destination, that would show a lack of moral imagination on our part. You can and ought to expect more from us, and we intend to live up to those higher expectations in the way we embody social responsibility and civic leadership everywhere we operate. I hope you will see that pledge express itself in our actions going forward, of which these initial, though important, changes are merely a first step.

Our goal should be nothing less than to make you truly proud to say, "I fly United."

Ultimately, the measure of our success is your satisfaction and the past several weeks have moved us to go further than ever before in elevating your experience with us. I know our 87,000 employees have taken this message to heart, and they are as energized as ever to fulfill our promise to serve you better with each flight and earn the trust you’ve given us.

We are working harder than ever for the privilege to serve you and I know we will be stronger, better and the customer-focused airline you expect and deserve.

With Great Gratitude,

Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines
Aftermath
Poll: Your Opinion of United Airlines Reference Material

UA's Customer Commitment says:
Occasionally we may not be able to provide you with a seat on a specific flight, even if you hold a ticket, have checked in, are present to board on time, and comply with other requirements. This is called an oversale, and occurs when restrictions apply to operating a particular flight safely (such as aircraft weight limits); when we have to substitute a smaller aircraft in place of a larger aircraft that was originally scheduled; or if more customers have checked in and are prepared to board than we have available seats.

If your flight is in an oversale situation, you will not be denied a seat until we first ask for volunteers willing to give up their confirmed seats. If there are not enough volunteers, we will deny boarding to passengers in accordance with our written policy on boarding priority. If you are involuntarily denied boarding and have complied with our check-in and other applicable rules, we will give you a written statement that describes your rights and explains how we determine boarding priority for an oversold flight. You will generally be entitled to compensation and transportation on an alternate flight.

We make complete rules for the payment of compensation, as well as our policy about boarding priorities, available at airports we serve. We will follow these rules to ensure you are treated fairly. Please be aware that you may be denied boarding without compensation if you do not check in on time or do not meet certain other requirements, or if we offer you alternative transportation that is planned to arrive at your destination or first stopover no later than one hour after the planned arrival time of your original flight.
CoC is here: https://www.united.com/web/en-US/con...-carriage.aspx
Print Wikipost

Man pulled off of overbooked flight UA3411 (ORD-SDF) 9 Apr 2017 {Settlement reached}

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Apr 10, 2017, 8:55 am
  #106  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: ORD/MDW
Programs: BA/AA/AS/B6/WN/ UA/HH/MR and more like 'em but most felicitously & importantly MUCCI
Posts: 19,719
Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
The problem with the auction is that most airlines aren't willing to go too much above what an IBD would cost, for a domestic delay exceeding two hours this would be 400% of the passenger's one way fare up to a maximum fo $1350.
Well, this incident has resulted in a million bucks' worth of horrible PR, plus untold lawyer hours looming ahead, so perhaps they should rethink that Smisekian focus on saving a few hundred bucks, even if it blows up the airline's reputation.
BearX220 is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 8:56 am
  #107  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Indianapolis, IN USA
Posts: 2,066
Amazed at how much social media this incident is getting - the videos are so shocking and unbelievable that it's all over Twitter and FB. And obviously UA media response to adding to the outrage.
bowdenj is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 8:56 am
  #108  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Cleveland, OH
Programs: UA-GS 1MM), Hertz Pres Circle, Starriott Titanium)
Posts: 1,966
Originally Posted by ironcow13
Overbooking is an unscrupulous practice. While I understand it's place in commercial aviation, there is a very reasonably way to handle it - free market.

I've said it before, but an overbooked plane could easily have a 5 minute auction on board. GA starts at $400 and increases offer until there is a taker, no other rules. It's very simple and there is little chance that the entire plane could collude and not accept an offer until it's $100 million or something crazy - the temptation around $1000 is too much for most.

This solves all overbooking problems and literally takes only a few minutes. Let the market of passengers decide how much their time is worth.

By the way, in case you feel sorry for airlines, remember this is not a difficult cost to estimate. They can quite easily include these costs into their operating and pricing models and include them in their IRR calcs.



Edit: FYI, this is called a Reverse Dutch Auction.
I bet you people would have been fighting over a $1600 certificate. Or they could even go with a Generic "Free first Class domestic Round trip for 2" which would have a significantly lower "Cost" to the airline and surely would have had takers.

Again, it boils down to the airline planned for their staff movements poorly, then had a paying passenger trespassed by police rather than make a reasonable offer of compensation. While it is within their rights LEGALLY...this is no way to run a business. United needs to seriously rethink how GAs are empowered to resolve such situations (in terms of compensation, not violence).
LordHamster is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 8:57 am
  #109  
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Midwest
Programs: Lifetime Platinum
Posts: 261
First of all, the passenger might be a doctor but the media should verify it before reporting that as fact. He may have just said so.

Second, this was a Republic Airlines flight operating as United Express.

Third, the passenger should not have failed to comply with crew-member instructions.

The man looks like he has mental issues to me.
Chevelter is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 8:58 am
  #110  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: K+K
Programs: *G
Posts: 4,871
Originally Posted by mach92
This was United Express not United. This was Republic airlines.
the good ole subcontracting excuse.

United branding, united ticket, and probably united.com that sold the fare
deniah is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 8:58 am
  #111  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: STL
Posts: 1,546
Originally Posted by mach92
This was United Express not United. This was Republic airlines.
If United wants to sell me a flight on a UX plane, slap their logo on UX planes, make the UX crew wear UA uniforms, make the UX crew thank me for flying United in their announcements and peddle the UA credit card and have UA baggage fees and fare restrictions apply to my UX flight, then their name can be dragged through the mud too when UX screws up.
t325 is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 8:58 am
  #112  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: BOS ORD (via MSP) and occasionally AUG and MWN
Programs: UA 2P. Former DL FO in the Golden Age of Mileage Runs
Posts: 139
Originally Posted by Live4Upgrade
I would have been ticked to get pulled off but ORD-SDF is drivable (5.5 hours) if his obligations were truly "urgent".
4:45 per Google.

Or even better: find seats on a flight to LEX, CVG or IND. LEX to SDF is all of 1:06 driving, CVG and IND are both well under 2 hours. Probably a lot cheaper to put the deadheads in to LEX or CVG and get them a limo than to pay $800 per pax for four pax here.

And if you're a pax and they get to $800 on a short-haul, take the money and run. Play let's make a deal with the airline. If you're nice and courteous to the airline and don't mind traveling the next day, you'll probably be in F. If they offer you $800 and a flight the next day, and you need to get home, get them to pay for a rental and gas and incidentals, because it's still cheaper than the other option. Or see if UA will give all four of you $1000 each, pool it together and rent a van for $400 and still wind up $900 ahead of the game.

UA certainly could handle this better up until calling in the thugs. For example, how many people on the plane trust they are actually going to get cash or check reimbursement? They might want to literally wave $100 bills in front of people to get their attention. "Yes, we will give you this money, no questions asked." Stupid to have to build that kind of trust, but with the airlines, you sort of have to.

In any case, there are lawyers salivating to represent this guy. He'll get a nice settlement.
vitira is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 8:59 am
  #113  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: MSP
Programs: DL SM
Posts: 91
And reddit does what reddit does.

https://www.reddit.com/r/UnitedBeatsDoctors/
RuesterGAGT is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 9:00 am
  #114  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by t325
If United wants to sell me a flight on a UX plane, slap their logo on UX planes, make the UX crew wear UA uniforms, make the UX crew thank me for flying United in their announcements and peddle the UA credit card and have UA baggage fees and fare restrictions apply to my UX flight, then their name can be dragged through the mud too when UX screws up.
^^

I'm not sure what United will need to do to get me to fly with them again.
TheBus is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 9:00 am
  #115  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 13
Honestly, Louisville is a 4.5hr drive according to Google Maps. How did no one at United think that they could spend $800 they were offering per passenger on renting a car for their four employees which would cover cost of rental and food, given they had to be there for the next day?

Regardless of the situation, to be bloodied, dazed, and dragged off a plane is a god damn disgrace to a company. This isn't an authoritarian state. The fact that you were still delayed 2+ hours, and now you have a PR nightmare with a doctor ready to sue you to the moon and back, I mean its just ridiculous really.
hykhan is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 9:01 am
  #116  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas
Programs: DL Platinum, AA Lifetime Gold, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Platinum, Radisson Premium
Posts: 6,638
I support United on this and it's not even a close call. [Off topic text edited by Moderator] why is no one talking about the passenger's refusal to get off the plane and obey the orders of the crew? Is it your position that a passenger can act beligirent, scream like an animal, and not be removed from the plane?

Yes, offering higher compensation should've probably been done. But most passengers would cooperate when security/police is called - the man obviously behaved beligirently and was being defiant.

I wish people would take time to think of the context instead of siding with a social media outrage mob every time

Last edited by Ocn Vw 1K; Apr 10, 2017 at 10:48 am Reason: Edit out off-topic (Omni) points.
demkr is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 9:01 am
  #117  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Dallas
Programs: AA LTPLT UA1P Hilton Dia Marriott Plat
Posts: 1,183
Talk to the DOT and US Government.

They have allowed this forever.




Originally Posted by deniah
the good ole subcontracting excuse.

United branding, united ticket, and probably united.com that sold the fare
mach92 is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 9:02 am
  #118  
Moderator: American AAdvantage, Travel Safety/Security & Texas, FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: AUS / GRK
Programs: AA, HHonors, Hertz
Posts: 13,488
I rarely visit the UA forum...there's usually enough else on FT to keep me busy.

However, I'm working from home, turned the tv in my office to CNBC for news about another company...when they showed the video, multiple times. This story is linked from their homepage:
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/10/video...ed-flight.html


About 10-15 min ago, they interviewed Gordon Bethune, former CEO of Continental.
aztimm is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 9:02 am
  #119  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Programs: UA Plat, Marriott Gold
Posts: 519
Originally Posted by kklems
Rather than a random computer selection they should have picked the last 4 to check in. I thought somewhere in the Code of Carriage (back in the paper ticket days) that this was the process in place. Or maybe with online checkin those policies have gone by the wayside.
Maybe it wasn't random. Maybe the computer picked the last 4 to check in.
PATRLR is offline  
Old Apr 10, 2017, 9:03 am
  #120  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Programs: Top Tier with all 3 alliances
Posts: 11,669
I think there is a case of cognitive inflexibility here on both sides, the United drones couldn't comprehend and think flexibly (or have not been trained properly) how to handle a more complex issue like this, and the passenger was also stuck to "I have to be to work tomorrow no matter what" thinking and feeling, and also somewhat unaware of his rights and also understandably angry about his rights being violated.

Anyway, they should have clearly gone up voluntarily until at least the $1350 cap.
nk15 is offline  


Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.