Last edit by: WineCountryUA
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Let’s have this discussion in a way that, when we look back on it, we can be proud of how we handled ourselves as a community.
The United Moderator team:
J.Edward
l'etoile
Ocn Vw 1K
Pat89339
WineCountryUA
N.B. PLEASE do not alter the contents of this moderator note
CHICAGO, April 27, 2017 /PRNewswire/ -- We are pleased to report that United and Dr. Dao have reached an amicable resolution of the unfortunate incident that occurred aboard flight 3411. We look forward to implementing the improvements we have announced, which will put our customers at the center of everything we do.
What facts do we know?
- UA3411, operated by Republic Airways, ORD-SDF on Sunday, April 9, 2017. UA3411 was the second to last flight to SDF for United. AA3509 and UA4771 were the two remaining departures for the day. Also, AA and DL had connecting options providing for same-day arrival in SDF.
- After the flight was fully boarded, United determined four seats were needed to accommodate crew to SDF for a flight on Monday.
- United solicited volunteers for VDB. (BUT stopped at $800 in UA$s, not cash). Chose not to go to the levels such as 1350 that airlines have been known to go even in case of weather impacted disruption)
- After receiving no volunteers for $800 vouchers, a passenger volunteered for $1,600 and was "laughed at" and refused, United determined four passengers to be removed from the flight.
- One passenger refused and Chicago Aviation Security Officers were called to forcibly remove the passenger.
- The passenger hit the armrest in the aisle and received a concussion, a broken nose, a bloodied lip, and the loss of two teeth.
- After being removed from the plane, the passenger re-boarded saying "I need to go home" repeatedly, before being removed again.
- United spokesman Jonathan Guerin said the flight was sold out — but not oversold. Instead, United and regional affiliate Republic Airlines – the unit that operated Flight 3411 – decided they had to remove four passengers from the flight to accommodate crewmembers who were needed in Louisville the next day for a “downline connection.”
United Express Flight 3411 Review and Action Report - released 27 April 2017
Videos
- Passenger one row behind and on the aisle footage BEFORE man was dragged off https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=655_1492004707
- Videos of man being removed https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4b7_1491983214 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nAZEk6nsNE
- Video of man re-entering plane https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNEQDWpYbZA (link dead)
Internal Communication by Oscar Munoz
Oscar Munoz sent an internal communication to UA employees (sources: View From The Wing, Chicago Tribune):
Dear Team,
Like you, I was upset to see and hear about what happened last night aboard United Express Flight 3411 headed from Chicago to Louisville. While the facts and circumstances are still evolving, especially with respect to why this customer defied Chicago Aviation Security Officers the way he did, to give you a clearer picture of what transpired, I've included below a recap from the preliminary reports filed by our employees.
As you will read, this situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact Chicago Aviation Security Officers to help. Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.
I do, however, believe there are lessons we can learn from this experience, and we are taking a close look at the circumstances surrounding this incident. Treating our customers and each other with respect and dignity is at the core of who we are, and we must always remember this no matter how challenging the situation.
Oscar
Summary of Flight 3411
Like you, I was upset to see and hear about what happened last night aboard United Express Flight 3411 headed from Chicago to Louisville. While the facts and circumstances are still evolving, especially with respect to why this customer defied Chicago Aviation Security Officers the way he did, to give you a clearer picture of what transpired, I've included below a recap from the preliminary reports filed by our employees.
As you will read, this situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact Chicago Aviation Security Officers to help. Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.
I do, however, believe there are lessons we can learn from this experience, and we are taking a close look at the circumstances surrounding this incident. Treating our customers and each other with respect and dignity is at the core of who we are, and we must always remember this no matter how challenging the situation.
Oscar
Summary of Flight 3411
- On Sunday, April 9, after United Express Flight 3411 was fully boarded, United's gate agents were approached by crewmembers that were told they needed to board the flight.
- We sought volunteers and then followed our involuntary denial of boarding process (including offering up to $1,000 in compensation) and when we approached one of these passengers to explain apologetically that he was being denied boarding, he raised his voice and refused to comply with crew member instructions.
- He was approached a few more times after that in order to gain his compliance to come off the aircraft, and each time he refused and became more and more disruptive and belligerent.
- Our agents were left with no choice but to call Chicago Aviation Security Officers to assist in removing the customer from the flight. He repeatedly declined to leave.
- Chicago Aviation Security Officers were unable to gain his cooperation and physically removed him from the flight as he continued to resist - running back onto the aircraft in defiance of both our crew and security officials.
Dear Team,
The truly horrific event that occurred on this flight has elicited many responses from all of us: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments, and one above all: my deepest apologies for what happened. Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard. No one should ever be mistreated this way.
I want you to know that we take full responsibility and we will work to make it right.
It’s never too late to do the right thing. I have committed to our customers and our employees that we are going to fix what’s broken so this never happens again. This will include a thorough review of crew movement, our policies for incentivizing volunteers in these situations, how we handle oversold situations and an examination of how we partner with airport authorities and local law enforcement. We’ll communicate the results of our review by April 30th.
I promise you we will do better.
Sincerely,
Oscar
The truly horrific event that occurred on this flight has elicited many responses from all of us: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments, and one above all: my deepest apologies for what happened. Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard. No one should ever be mistreated this way.
I want you to know that we take full responsibility and we will work to make it right.
It’s never too late to do the right thing. I have committed to our customers and our employees that we are going to fix what’s broken so this never happens again. This will include a thorough review of crew movement, our policies for incentivizing volunteers in these situations, how we handle oversold situations and an examination of how we partner with airport authorities and local law enforcement. We’ll communicate the results of our review by April 30th.
I promise you we will do better.
Sincerely,
Oscar
Each flight you take with us represents an important promise we make to you, our customer. It's not simply that we make sure you reach your destination safely and on time, but also that you will be treated with the highest level of service and the deepest sense of dignity and respect.
Earlier this month, we broke that trust when a passenger was forcibly removed from one of our planes. We can never say we are sorry enough for what occurred, but we also know meaningful actions will speak louder than words.
For the past several weeks, we have been urgently working to answer two questions: How did this happen, and how can we do our best to ensure this never happens again?
It happened because our corporate policies were placed ahead of our shared values. Our procedures got in the way of our employees doing what they know is right.
Fixing that problem starts now with changing how we fly, serve and respect our customers. This is a turning point for all of us here at United – and as CEO, it's my responsibility to make sure that we learn from this experience and redouble our efforts to put our customers at the center of everything we do.
That’s why we announced that we will no longer ask law enforcement to remove customers from a flight and customers will not be required to give up their seat once on board – except in matters of safety or security.
We also know that despite our best efforts, when things don’t go the way they should, we need to be there for you to make things right. There are several new ways we’re going to do just that.
We will increase incentives for voluntary rebooking up to $10,000 and will be eliminating the red tape on permanently lost bags with a new "no-questions-asked" $1,500 reimbursement policy. We will also be rolling out a new app for our employees that will enable them to provide on-the-spot goodwill gestures in the form of miles, travel credit and other amenities when your experience with us misses the mark. You can learn more about these commitments and many other changes at hub.united.com.
While these actions are important, I have found myself reflecting more broadly on the role we play and the responsibilities we have to you and the communities we serve.
I believe we must go further in redefining what United's corporate citizenship looks like in our society. If our chief good as a company is only getting you to and from your destination, that would show a lack of moral imagination on our part. You can and ought to expect more from us, and we intend to live up to those higher expectations in the way we embody social responsibility and civic leadership everywhere we operate. I hope you will see that pledge express itself in our actions going forward, of which these initial, though important, changes are merely a first step.
Our goal should be nothing less than to make you truly proud to say, "I fly United."
Ultimately, the measure of our success is your satisfaction and the past several weeks have moved us to go further than ever before in elevating your experience with us. I know our 87,000 employees have taken this message to heart, and they are as energized as ever to fulfill our promise to serve you better with each flight and earn the trust you’ve given us.
We are working harder than ever for the privilege to serve you and I know we will be stronger, better and the customer-focused airline you expect and deserve.
With Great Gratitude,
Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines
Earlier this month, we broke that trust when a passenger was forcibly removed from one of our planes. We can never say we are sorry enough for what occurred, but we also know meaningful actions will speak louder than words.
For the past several weeks, we have been urgently working to answer two questions: How did this happen, and how can we do our best to ensure this never happens again?
It happened because our corporate policies were placed ahead of our shared values. Our procedures got in the way of our employees doing what they know is right.
Fixing that problem starts now with changing how we fly, serve and respect our customers. This is a turning point for all of us here at United – and as CEO, it's my responsibility to make sure that we learn from this experience and redouble our efforts to put our customers at the center of everything we do.
That’s why we announced that we will no longer ask law enforcement to remove customers from a flight and customers will not be required to give up their seat once on board – except in matters of safety or security.
We also know that despite our best efforts, when things don’t go the way they should, we need to be there for you to make things right. There are several new ways we’re going to do just that.
We will increase incentives for voluntary rebooking up to $10,000 and will be eliminating the red tape on permanently lost bags with a new "no-questions-asked" $1,500 reimbursement policy. We will also be rolling out a new app for our employees that will enable them to provide on-the-spot goodwill gestures in the form of miles, travel credit and other amenities when your experience with us misses the mark. You can learn more about these commitments and many other changes at hub.united.com.
While these actions are important, I have found myself reflecting more broadly on the role we play and the responsibilities we have to you and the communities we serve.
I believe we must go further in redefining what United's corporate citizenship looks like in our society. If our chief good as a company is only getting you to and from your destination, that would show a lack of moral imagination on our part. You can and ought to expect more from us, and we intend to live up to those higher expectations in the way we embody social responsibility and civic leadership everywhere we operate. I hope you will see that pledge express itself in our actions going forward, of which these initial, though important, changes are merely a first step.
Our goal should be nothing less than to make you truly proud to say, "I fly United."
Ultimately, the measure of our success is your satisfaction and the past several weeks have moved us to go further than ever before in elevating your experience with us. I know our 87,000 employees have taken this message to heart, and they are as energized as ever to fulfill our promise to serve you better with each flight and earn the trust you’ve given us.
We are working harder than ever for the privilege to serve you and I know we will be stronger, better and the customer-focused airline you expect and deserve.
With Great Gratitude,
Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines
- Chicago Aviation Department said on the Monday afternoon after the incident that the officer who had dragged the passenger off the plane had been placed on leave pending an investigation. Spokesperson Karen Pride said in an email that "The incident on United flight 3411 was not in accordance with our standard operating procedure and the actions of the aviation security officer are obviously not condoned by the Department."
- 4/12/17: Two more Chicago Aviation officers involved are suspended
- Muñoz does ABC interview, announcing United will no longer use law enforcement to remove passengers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90jSUe_vdhM
- United announces policy change that crews traveling on their aircraft must be booked at least 60 minutes prior to departure.
- United releases multiple changes in overbooking / denied boarding policies "We are making changes to ensure that we always put customers first" (http://newsroom.united.com/2017-04-2...mer-Experience) released 27 April 2017
- Statement from United Airlines Regarding Resolution with Dr. David Dao - released 27 April 2017
- Response to Senate Commerce Committee questions - 1 May 2017
- United Airlines PR Boss to Step Down
- James Long, one of several officers involved in removing David Dao from the April 9, 2017, flight to make room for airline employees, filed suit on Tuesday against United, Chicago’s Department of Aviation and its commissioner, Ginger Evans. The lawsuit, filed in the circuit court of Cook County, Illinois, alleges he was not properly trained on how to use force.
Poll: Your Opinion of United Airlines
Poll link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/KP68GYG
Results link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/results...Q6B2B/instant/
Reference MaterialResults link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/results...Q6B2B/instant/
UA's Customer Commitment says:
Occasionally we may not be able to provide you with a seat on a specific flight, even if you hold a ticket, have checked in, are present to board on time, and comply with other requirements. This is called an oversale, and occurs when restrictions apply to operating a particular flight safely (such as aircraft weight limits); when we have to substitute a smaller aircraft in place of a larger aircraft that was originally scheduled; or if more customers have checked in and are prepared to board than we have available seats.
If your flight is in an oversale situation, you will not be denied a seat until we first ask for volunteers willing to give up their confirmed seats. If there are not enough volunteers, we will deny boarding to passengers in accordance with our written policy on boarding priority. If you are involuntarily denied boarding and have complied with our check-in and other applicable rules, we will give you a written statement that describes your rights and explains how we determine boarding priority for an oversold flight. You will generally be entitled to compensation and transportation on an alternate flight.
We make complete rules for the payment of compensation, as well as our policy about boarding priorities, available at airports we serve. We will follow these rules to ensure you are treated fairly. Please be aware that you may be denied boarding without compensation if you do not check in on time or do not meet certain other requirements, or if we offer you alternative transportation that is planned to arrive at your destination or first stopover no later than one hour after the planned arrival time of your original flight.
CoC is here: https://www.united.com/web/en-US/con...-carriage.aspxIf your flight is in an oversale situation, you will not be denied a seat until we first ask for volunteers willing to give up their confirmed seats. If there are not enough volunteers, we will deny boarding to passengers in accordance with our written policy on boarding priority. If you are involuntarily denied boarding and have complied with our check-in and other applicable rules, we will give you a written statement that describes your rights and explains how we determine boarding priority for an oversold flight. You will generally be entitled to compensation and transportation on an alternate flight.
We make complete rules for the payment of compensation, as well as our policy about boarding priorities, available at airports we serve. We will follow these rules to ensure you are treated fairly. Please be aware that you may be denied boarding without compensation if you do not check in on time or do not meet certain other requirements, or if we offer you alternative transportation that is planned to arrive at your destination or first stopover no later than one hour after the planned arrival time of your original flight.
Man pulled off of overbooked flight UA3411 (ORD-SDF) 9 Apr 2017 {Settlement reached}
#1141
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Base: EWR/LGA/JFK. 2016: BOM, DEL, HYD, BKK, SIN, HKG, ICN, NRT, LAX, SFO, DEN, ORD, BNA, IAH, MIA, MDE, BOG, CHO, IAD, LHR, LCY, FRA, ZRH, LIN, MXP
Programs: UA 1K, Hertz Presidents Circle, Ritz Lifetime Platinum Premier, SPG Lifetime Platinum
Posts: 146
That's right. I see the line in that Rule where it says four beasts can remove a passenger out of the seat, smash his head on an arm-rest, and then force the entire lot to deplane 30 minutes later to "clean up" (according to the staff at ORD) so long as it is a paying doctor en-route to assist patients in need. Sickening. Notwithstanding, there is no legacy competition to counter this, inclusive of non-incentive, devalued, oppressive frequent flier mile programs
But this event created United Airlines v. Little Sisters of the Poor. Thank you Bush and Obama for creating this.
But this event created United Airlines v. Little Sisters of the Poor. Thank you Bush and Obama for creating this.
#1142
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Northern California
Programs: I want to be free! Free!
Posts: 3,455
Alright crew command folks - what crew orders must be obeyed? where in is it in the crew's authority to deplane one pax in front of another? I don't think it matters whether United had the legal right to boot this guy in respect of summoning the violent force of the government to resolve the issue, but it's not even clear to me they did have that authority:
"Below is the legal basis for that “crew member instructions” claim. There are the three defensible legal criteria; all else is puffery.
"Signs, placards and crew instructions related to smoking prohibitions must be obeyed under penalty of law.
Signs, placards and crew instructions related to seat belts must be obeyed under penalty of law.
It is illegal to assault, threaten, intimidate, or interfere with a crew member in the performance of the crew member’s duties."
source: https://www.belle-aurore.com/mike/20...must-you-obey/
"Below is the legal basis for that “crew member instructions” claim. There are the three defensible legal criteria; all else is puffery.
"Signs, placards and crew instructions related to smoking prohibitions must be obeyed under penalty of law.
Signs, placards and crew instructions related to seat belts must be obeyed under penalty of law.
It is illegal to assault, threaten, intimidate, or interfere with a crew member in the performance of the crew member’s duties."
source: https://www.belle-aurore.com/mike/20...must-you-obey/
#1144
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 514
The gate agent stopped @ $800. I bet if they went to $1300, they would have gotten 4 volunteers. They might have had the whole plane fighting on that $1300, but there can only be 4.
#1145
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: BNE/OOL temporarily-permanently at CAK/PIT
Programs: UA*1K & UA Club, National Ex. Elite, Hertz Pres. Circ., Amex Plat., CLEAR
Posts: 1,703
#1146
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: MSP
Programs: DL PM, UA Gold, WN, Global Entry; +others wherever miles/points are found
Posts: 14,424
1. The IDB policy in United's Contrract of Carriage DOES NOT allow United to remove passengers from the plane. This is in contrast to other provisions in United's Contract of Carriage that explicitly allows United to remove passengers from planes.
2. The passenger was a lawful licensee on the plane in conformance with all of the terms and conditions of his licensee. As such, he was not trespassing and United did not have the right to remove him.
2. The passenger was a lawful licensee on the plane in conformance with all of the terms and conditions of his licensee. As such, he was not trespassing and United did not have the right to remove him.
Great questions...
Does anyone know the regs for a passenger already boarded and seated?
And if the CoC is silent on the issue of deplaning a boarded passenger, contract law would typically benefit the person that did not write the contract; in this case, the passenger.
Does anyone know the regs for a passenger already boarded and seated?
And if the CoC is silent on the issue of deplaning a boarded passenger, contract law would typically benefit the person that did not write the contract; in this case, the passenger.
The first question is: Who is responsible for allocating more seats than available? The passenger? No, the airline. It earns extra money by doing so. If nobody wants to deplane for $800, they should've raised the offer. At some point, somebody will volunteer.
How would you feel if you booked a full fare Y ticket, that's more than $1000 than the super discounted ticket the next morning? If you agreed to the $800 to fly the next morning, you would effectively make a loss of $200, that you paid too much.
You might disagree with my opinion, but I firmly believe in the binding effect of contracts and the vision that both sides shall perform the contract as agreed upon. Regarding T&Cs/CoCs, I have a very critic opinion when it comes to agreements between professional parties and consumers and particularly if these documents contain unusual clauses that are unnecessarily unfavorable to consumers (given that most customers don't read them).
How would you feel if you booked a full fare Y ticket, that's more than $1000 than the super discounted ticket the next morning? If you agreed to the $800 to fly the next morning, you would effectively make a loss of $200, that you paid too much.
You might disagree with my opinion, but I firmly believe in the binding effect of contracts and the vision that both sides shall perform the contract as agreed upon. Regarding T&Cs/CoCs, I have a very critic opinion when it comes to agreements between professional parties and consumers and particularly if these documents contain unusual clauses that are unnecessarily unfavorable to consumers (given that most customers don't read them).
Now, I agree that $1,350 is a little low when compared to some routes. I think that the IDB limit should be higher. But that's a little beside the point.
#1147
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3
Treated Like A Dead Deer Carcass
---So now, passengers not only risk being extensively groped during security processing before boarding a plane, they also risk being forcibly taken off a plane, for which they have already been given a seat, as if they were a dead deer carcass.
---I would have fought just like this doctor did. United personnel acted like animals.
---What part, if any, did race play in the selection (we will never know)? I bet United personnel did not select an adult traveling with a child or a millennial or a female.
---Why couldn’t United Airlines At LEAST be honest???? Tell passengers that the flight was NOT overbooked, but it needed four seats for four Republic Airlines employees and why it so important for Republic Airlines personnel to travel? However, even if United Airlines had been honest, it should NOT have requested four passengers to leave or be forcibly dragged off the plane! Republic Airlines employees can wait their turn.
---Besides, the flight was truly overbooked, the powers that be would not have let this doctor and the three other “extra” passengers on the plane - they would not have been given a seat in the first place. Cannot “the powers that be” count the number of seats available and know in advance, as well as in real time, the number of passengers who are boarding the plane???
---I would have fought just like this doctor did. United personnel acted like animals.
---What part, if any, did race play in the selection (we will never know)? I bet United personnel did not select an adult traveling with a child or a millennial or a female.
---Why couldn’t United Airlines At LEAST be honest???? Tell passengers that the flight was NOT overbooked, but it needed four seats for four Republic Airlines employees and why it so important for Republic Airlines personnel to travel? However, even if United Airlines had been honest, it should NOT have requested four passengers to leave or be forcibly dragged off the plane! Republic Airlines employees can wait their turn.
---Besides, the flight was truly overbooked, the powers that be would not have let this doctor and the three other “extra” passengers on the plane - they would not have been given a seat in the first place. Cannot “the powers that be” count the number of seats available and know in advance, as well as in real time, the number of passengers who are boarding the plane???
#1148
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: LHR, HKG
Programs: gate lice
Posts: 315
I don't think it really matters whether he was targeted because of his race. My personal opinion is that it wasn't.
What does matter is public perception. And when Asian media outlets write about an Asian guy being roughed up on a UA flight, chances are, the Asians who read those stories will choose to fly other airlines or avoid the U.S. altogether. And that is not good for UA's bottom line. And the bottom line is what matters.
#1149
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Global
Posts: 5,998
From a flight crew... no one has confirmed it was from the flight crew. Typically it is a ground agent that tells you to get off the plane. AFAIK - there is no lawful order from a gate agent.
#1151
Join Date: May 2001
Location: San Francisco/Bangkok
Programs: Alaska 75K United 1K
Posts: 1,409
6. United can now forget about Chinese market, forever. Imagine if this was an Air China flight and the bloodied passenger was an American. Would any American subsequently fly Air China?
I was commenting to others today this exact same thing
I was commenting to others today this exact same thing
#1152
Join Date: May 2014
Location: DMV
Posts: 2,092
I guess two of these rules, where causing this much trouble:
- The tendency of flight crews of calling cops, whenever there is disagreement to their commands.
- The tendancy of US cops of being rather brutal when it comes to meditating the situation they were called over for
I honestly think it's why they are so defensive and often get annoyed very quickly at the first sign of discontent or skepticism on the part of members of the public.
In many ways, the stereotypical 'jerk' working in such a role is a mirror image of how many of us are jerks when interacting with people who are by the nature of their job required to sometimes make things unpleasant for us.
#1153
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 43
Nowhere does the Contract for Carriage provide that United can remove a paying ticket holder from a flight because it would be convenient for United's flight operations beyond the flight at issue.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Apr 10, 2017 at 6:21 pm Reason: Discuss the issue, don't comment about the poster
#1154
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: SFO
Programs: BR Diamond, Dynasty Flyer Paragon, Marriott Lifetime Plat
Posts: 1,926
Good to see United's response on social media. Deleting the many comments that people made is not the way to go! Just leave it. Censoring people will only make them more annoyed. And their statement is just plain garbage.
#1155
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: BNE/OOL temporarily-permanently at CAK/PIT
Programs: UA*1K & UA Club, National Ex. Elite, Hertz Pres. Circ., Amex Plat., CLEAR
Posts: 1,703
Make the airlines keep raising the idb payment until someone bites. #freemarket
In that case, the free market solution is "fly another airline", which any of us are free to do. I already pointed out an airline that flies to Louisville that doesn't overbook.