Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > United Airlines | MileagePlus
Reload this Page >

Man pulled off of overbooked flight UA3411 (ORD-SDF) 9 Apr 2017 {Settlement reached}

Community
Wiki Posts
Search
Old Apr 10, 2017, 8:42 pm
FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides
Last edit by: WineCountryUA
WELCOME, THREAD GUIDELINES and SUMMARY PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING

If you are new to us, welcome to FlyerTalk! Who we are: FlyerTalk features discussions and chat boards that cover the most up-to-date traveler information; an interactive community dedicated to the topic of travel (not politics or arguments about politics or religion, etc. – those discussion are best in the OMNI forum)

The incident discussed in this thread has touched a nerve for many, and many posters are passionate about their opinions and concerns. However we should still have a civil and respectful discussion of this topic. This is because FlyerTalk is meant to be a friendly, helpful, and collegial community. (Rule 12.)

1. The normal FlyerTalk Rules apply. (Including not discussing moderation actions in thread). Please be particularly attentive to "discussing the idea and not the poster" when you have a disagreement. Civility and mutual respect are still expected and are what we owe each other as a community.

2. You are expected to respect the FlyerTalk community's diversity, and therefore refrain from posting inflammatory comments about race, religion, culture, politics, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. Do not cite, copy, or report on such.

3. While you can disagree with an opinion, the holder of that opinion has the same right to their opinion as you have to yours. We request all to respect that and disagree or discuss their point of views without getting overly personal and without attacking the other poster(s). This is expected as a requirement in FT Rule 12.

4. Overly exaggerative posts as well as posts with information that has been posted several times previously may be summarily deleted.

5. In addition, those who repeatedly fail to comply with FlyerTalk Rules, may be subjected to FlyerTalk disciplinary actions and, e.g., have membership privileges suspended, or masked from this forum.

If you have questions about the Rules or concerns about what another has posted in this or other threads in this forum, please do not post about that. Rather, notify the moderators by using the alert symbol within each post or email or send a private message to us moderators.

Let’s have this discussion in a way that, when we look back on it, we can be proud of how we handled ourselves as a community.

The United Moderator team:
J.Edward
l'etoile
Ocn Vw 1K
Pat89339
WineCountryUA

N.B. PLEASE do not alter the contents of this moderator note
Statement from United Airlines Regarding Resolution with Dr. David Dao - released 27 April 2017
CHICAGO, April 27, 2017 /PRNewswire/ -- We are pleased to report that United and Dr. Dao have reached an amicable resolution of the unfortunate incident that occurred aboard flight 3411. We look forward to implementing the improvements we have announced, which will put our customers at the center of everything we do.
DOT findings related to the UA3411 9 April 2017 IDB incident 12 May 2017

What facts do we know?
  • UA3411, operated by Republic Airways, ORD-SDF on Sunday, April 9, 2017. UA3411 was the second to last flight to SDF for United. AA3509 and UA4771 were the two remaining departures for the day. Also, AA and DL had connecting options providing for same-day arrival in SDF.
  • After the flight was fully boarded, United determined four seats were needed to accommodate crew to SDF for a flight on Monday.
  • United solicited volunteers for VDB. (BUT stopped at $800 in UA$s, not cash). Chose not to go to the levels such as 1350 that airlines have been known to go even in case of weather impacted disruption)
  • After receiving no volunteers for $800 vouchers, a passenger volunteered for $1,600 and was "laughed at" and refused, United determined four passengers to be removed from the flight.
  • One passenger refused and Chicago Aviation Security Officers were called to forcibly remove the passenger.
  • The passenger hit the armrest in the aisle and received a concussion, a broken nose, a bloodied lip, and the loss of two teeth.
  • After being removed from the plane, the passenger re-boarded saying "I need to go home" repeatedly, before being removed again.
  • United spokesman Jonathan Guerin said the flight was sold out — but not oversold. Instead, United and regional affiliate Republic Airlines – the unit that operated Flight 3411 – decided they had to remove four passengers from the flight to accommodate crewmembers who were needed in Louisville the next day for a “downline connection.”

United Express Flight 3411 Review and Action Report - released 27 April 2017

Videos

Internal Communication by Oscar Munoz
Oscar Munoz sent an internal communication to UA employees (sources: View From The Wing, Chicago Tribune):
Dear Team,

Like you, I was upset to see and hear about what happened last night aboard United Express Flight 3411 headed from Chicago to Louisville. While the facts and circumstances are still evolving, especially with respect to why this customer defied Chicago Aviation Security Officers the way he did, to give you a clearer picture of what transpired, I've included below a recap from the preliminary reports filed by our employees.

As you will read, this situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact Chicago Aviation Security Officers to help. Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.

I do, however, believe there are lessons we can learn from this experience, and we are taking a close look at the circumstances surrounding this incident. Treating our customers and each other with respect and dignity is at the core of who we are, and we must always remember this no matter how challenging the situation.

Oscar

Summary of Flight 3411
  • On Sunday, April 9, after United Express Flight 3411 was fully boarded, United's gate agents were approached by crewmembers that were told they needed to board the flight.
  • We sought volunteers and then followed our involuntary denial of boarding process (including offering up to $1,000 in compensation) and when we approached one of these passengers to explain apologetically that he was being denied boarding, he raised his voice and refused to comply with crew member instructions.
  • He was approached a few more times after that in order to gain his compliance to come off the aircraft, and each time he refused and became more and more disruptive and belligerent.
  • Our agents were left with no choice but to call Chicago Aviation Security Officers to assist in removing the customer from the flight. He repeatedly declined to leave.
  • Chicago Aviation Security Officers were unable to gain his cooperation and physically removed him from the flight as he continued to resist - running back onto the aircraft in defiance of both our crew and security officials.
Email sent to all employees at 2:08PM on Tuesday, April 11.
Dear Team,

The truly horrific event that occurred on this flight has elicited many responses from all of us: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments, and one above all: my deepest apologies for what happened. Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard. No one should ever be mistreated this way.

I want you to know that we take full responsibility and we will work to make it right.

It’s never too late to do the right thing. I have committed to our customers and our employees that we are going to fix what’s broken so this never happens again. This will include a thorough review of crew movement, our policies for incentivizing volunteers in these situations, how we handle oversold situations and an examination of how we partner with airport authorities and local law enforcement. We’ll communicate the results of our review by April 30th.

I promise you we will do better.

Sincerely,

Oscar
Statement to customers - 27 April 2017
Each flight you take with us represents an important promise we make to you, our customer. It's not simply that we make sure you reach your destination safely and on time, but also that you will be treated with the highest level of service and the deepest sense of dignity and respect.

Earlier this month, we broke that trust when a passenger was forcibly removed from one of our planes. We can never say we are sorry enough for what occurred, but we also know meaningful actions will speak louder than words.

For the past several weeks, we have been urgently working to answer two questions: How did this happen, and how can we do our best to ensure this never happens again?

It happened because our corporate policies were placed ahead of our shared values. Our procedures got in the way of our employees doing what they know is right.

Fixing that problem starts now with changing how we fly, serve and respect our customers. This is a turning point for all of us here at United – and as CEO, it's my responsibility to make sure that we learn from this experience and redouble our efforts to put our customers at the center of everything we do.

That’s why we announced that we will no longer ask law enforcement to remove customers from a flight and customers will not be required to give up their seat once on board – except in matters of safety or security.

We also know that despite our best efforts, when things don’t go the way they should, we need to be there for you to make things right. There are several new ways we’re going to do just that.

We will increase incentives for voluntary rebooking up to $10,000 and will be eliminating the red tape on permanently lost bags with a new "no-questions-asked" $1,500 reimbursement policy. We will also be rolling out a new app for our employees that will enable them to provide on-the-spot goodwill gestures in the form of miles, travel credit and other amenities when your experience with us misses the mark. You can learn more about these commitments and many other changes at hub.united.com.

While these actions are important, I have found myself reflecting more broadly on the role we play and the responsibilities we have to you and the communities we serve.

I believe we must go further in redefining what United's corporate citizenship looks like in our society. If our chief good as a company is only getting you to and from your destination, that would show a lack of moral imagination on our part. You can and ought to expect more from us, and we intend to live up to those higher expectations in the way we embody social responsibility and civic leadership everywhere we operate. I hope you will see that pledge express itself in our actions going forward, of which these initial, though important, changes are merely a first step.

Our goal should be nothing less than to make you truly proud to say, "I fly United."

Ultimately, the measure of our success is your satisfaction and the past several weeks have moved us to go further than ever before in elevating your experience with us. I know our 87,000 employees have taken this message to heart, and they are as energized as ever to fulfill our promise to serve you better with each flight and earn the trust you’ve given us.

We are working harder than ever for the privilege to serve you and I know we will be stronger, better and the customer-focused airline you expect and deserve.

With Great Gratitude,

Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines
Aftermath
Poll: Your Opinion of United Airlines Reference Material

UA's Customer Commitment says:
Occasionally we may not be able to provide you with a seat on a specific flight, even if you hold a ticket, have checked in, are present to board on time, and comply with other requirements. This is called an oversale, and occurs when restrictions apply to operating a particular flight safely (such as aircraft weight limits); when we have to substitute a smaller aircraft in place of a larger aircraft that was originally scheduled; or if more customers have checked in and are prepared to board than we have available seats.

If your flight is in an oversale situation, you will not be denied a seat until we first ask for volunteers willing to give up their confirmed seats. If there are not enough volunteers, we will deny boarding to passengers in accordance with our written policy on boarding priority. If you are involuntarily denied boarding and have complied with our check-in and other applicable rules, we will give you a written statement that describes your rights and explains how we determine boarding priority for an oversold flight. You will generally be entitled to compensation and transportation on an alternate flight.

We make complete rules for the payment of compensation, as well as our policy about boarding priorities, available at airports we serve. We will follow these rules to ensure you are treated fairly. Please be aware that you may be denied boarding without compensation if you do not check in on time or do not meet certain other requirements, or if we offer you alternative transportation that is planned to arrive at your destination or first stopover no later than one hour after the planned arrival time of your original flight.
CoC is here: https://www.united.com/web/en-US/con...-carriage.aspx
Print Wikipost

Man pulled off of overbooked flight UA3411 (ORD-SDF) 9 Apr 2017 {Settlement reached}

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Apr 13, 2017, 9:02 am
  #4651  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 57,609
Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
So there should be no plain clothes/undercover officers?
Every time I see a VSP unmarked unit carrying out a traffic stop, the trooper is in a VSP uniform.

Unmarked car, no uniform? I'm not unlocking the doors until I confirm the officer is legit. YMMV.
halls120 is offline  
Old Apr 13, 2017, 9:06 am
  #4652  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 102,095
Plaintiff's attorney Thomas Demetrio's press conference on now about the airline's unreasonable and excessive use of violence and lack of care for passengers.
GUWonder is offline  
Old Apr 13, 2017, 9:08 am
  #4653  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: LHR, HKG
Programs: gate lice
Posts: 315
leungy18 is offline  
Old Apr 13, 2017, 9:08 am
  #4654  
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 143
Originally Posted by GUWonder
Plaintiff's attorney Thomas Demetrio's press conference on now about the airline's unreasonable and excessive use of violence and lack of care for passengers.
Listening to this, I think this is going to trial--no settlement.
George Purcell is offline  
Old Apr 13, 2017, 9:11 am
  #4655  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Programs: United Plat and falling
Posts: 100
Originally Posted by George Purcell
Listening to this, I think this is going to trial--no settlement.
Its hard to imagine a plaintiff demand level that United wouldn't pay just to get this out of the news ASAP..
fischi is offline  
Old Apr 13, 2017, 9:11 am
  #4656  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: SEA
Programs: UA SP, DL SM MM, AS 75K, SPG Platinum, Hyatt Diamond.
Posts: 2,596
Amusing to watch this discussion devolved into a debate of market advantages or disadvantages of over-booking.

This inexcusable situation has no defense, there is little point to debate the what-ifs, and the armchair CEO'ing is a bunch of false posturing.

The Chicago PD (must edit this apparently, since the pedantic among us are fixated on subtle facts over intent of a message, NOT the PD, however the Chicago Aviation Police, which also work for the city of Chicago, just like the PD, but they are NOT the PD, clear? Mia culpa, and all the other silliness necessary for the literal obsessed.), took immediate action on their part, there was no hand-wringing of what to do, or what to say. It was decisive, fast response the officer in charge was put on leave, pending an investigation. Period.

Good leadership is demonstrated by the making the right decision in the moment of the worst situations. That's the responsibility of leadership, and the reason the rewards of leadership are disproportionately high. The leadership at United continues to be weak. Smisek was corrupt, and Munoz demonstrated a disconnect with the customer that is alarming for the CEO of a company claiming to be a consumer focused business.

Debating the legal history of the victim, the actions of the other customers, IDB or VDB policies, and so on are mere distractions to the core issue. A situation arose, because of a culture that rewards enforcement of policy over logical decision making front line empowerment to resolve a situation with the least amount of turmoil. The solution here was so simple, and yet it wasn't even considered by the gate agent running this flight. Increase the compensation for VDB until you get the number of people you need to volunteer. Does that mean United is being held hostage? Not at all, it's a business decision, you have 4 people you need to get to Louisville, how much are you willing to pay to get them there? It's simple economics. For all the rah-rah boosting of the free market and deregulation attitude currently sweeping our culture and this industry in particular, why is this so difficult to understand? Ah, of course it's the have your cake and being able to eat it too.

Last edited by transportbiz; Apr 13, 2017 at 12:41 pm
transportbiz is offline  
Old Apr 13, 2017, 9:11 am
  #4657  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,114
Originally Posted by halls120
Every time I see a VSP unmarked unit carrying out a traffic stop, the trooper is in a VSP uniform.

Unmarked car, no uniform? I'm not unlocking the doors until I confirm the officer is legit. YMMV.
I was responding to your remark of "We require LE personnel to wear a uniform for a reason".

Not all are in uniforms and I think we can all agree that there are valid reasons.
Boggie Dog is offline  
Old Apr 13, 2017, 9:13 am
  #4658  
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 143
Originally Posted by fischi
Its hard to imagine a plaintiff demand level that United wouldn't pay just to get this out of the news ASAP..
Unless the fundamental plaintiff demand is non-monetary.
George Purcell is offline  
Old Apr 13, 2017, 9:13 am
  #4659  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 41
Originally Posted by worldtrav
For 2016 (January through September) the IDB rate at United was 0.45 people involuntarily bumped per 10,000 passengers. At Jet Blue the rate was 0.82 in the same period. How do you explain the higher rate (almost double) at JetBlue?
They don't practice overselling - they have frequent equipment swaps. That doesn't answer my question really though...if overselling helps keep fares low for consumers then surely JetBlue would cost more than those airlines which do practice overselling.
justinwong is offline  
Old Apr 13, 2017, 9:14 am
  #4660  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 57,609
Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
I was responding to your remark of "We require LE personnel to wear a uniform for a reason".

Not all are in uniforms and I think we can all agree that there are valid reasons.
Even undercover cops put on windbreakers that say "FBI" or "Police" if they expect to interact with the public in an enforcement capacity. Sending poorly outfitted officers on board an airplane was stupid.
halls120 is offline  
Old Apr 13, 2017, 9:15 am
  #4661  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: ORD/MDW
Programs: BA/AA/AS/B6/WN/ UA/HH/MR and more like 'em but most felicitously & importantly MUCCI
Posts: 19,719
Originally Posted by GUWonder
Conference on now about the airline's unreasonable and excessive use of violence and lack of care for passengers.
Live on CNN. Rush notes here. United comes off somewhere lower than ISIS in terms of public regard.

Thomas Demetrio, Dr. Dao's attorney:

** Says he has been inundated with hundreds of additional horror stories about United service culture from passengers and former UA employees

** "The airlines are bullying us"

** "Will there be a lawsuit? Yeah, probably" .. but we're still doing due diligence. When we file that lawsuit every word, every preposition, will be in there for a reason

** "Dr. Dao has come to understand that he's the guy. He's the guy to stand up for passengers going forward"

** Attacks Munoz for "backing up his people... that may be a big part of the cultural problem... it's us against them. Well, we're them!"

** This lawsuit can create a national -- or international -- discussion about how the airlines treat people. "United has to figure out: what do we do? We take money from people, we let them sit on the airplane, seat-belted. Are we really going to just start taking them off? Is that what we want as a society? Maybe airlines need to start expecting the unexpected, but certainly not at the physical expense of its paying passengers"

** "We're going to be vocal about the whole subject of what we as a society say passengers are entitled to. Are we going to continue to be treated like cattle? Bullied? ... We all have enough angst about flying as it is. But don't treat the people who help make you the corporate entity you are like Dr. Dao was treated."

Crystal Dao, Dr. Dao's daughter:

** "We would like to express our gratitude for the outpouring of prayers, concern, love we have received from all over the world"

** "It has been a very difficult time for our entire family, especially my Dad. What happened to him should never happen to any human being... we were horrified, sickened, shocked... we hope in the future nothing like this happens again"

Lawyer Demetrio again answering press questions:

** Does not think race played into the incident. Could have happened to any one of us.

** Dao suffered concussion, broken nose, injury to sinuses, lost two front teeth, faces reconstructive surgery.

** DENIES United has reached out to Dao or his family or lawyers -- DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS MUNOZ

** Dao emigrated from Vietnam via boatlift in 1975, told attorney being dragged off the UA flight was worse than that experience, which accounted for his "Just kill me" statements in cabin as he was freshly concussed

** Refers to cops aboard aircraft as "storm troopers" and says the City of Chicago shares responsibility for this event with United

Last edited by BearX220; Apr 13, 2017 at 9:23 am
BearX220 is offline  
Old Apr 13, 2017, 9:16 am
  #4662  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: MCI
Programs: AA Gold 1MM, AS MVP, UA Silver, WN A-List, Marriott LT Titanium, HH Diamond
Posts: 52,575
Originally Posted by Cofyknsult
There is no doubt that Overbooking has become an apparent monster... 200 seats aircraft overbooked by 40 to 60 passengers in coach are common. However, Involuntary Denied Boarding already has a cost, the airlines know what they are doing and Revenue Management has become an (almost) exact science. Planes overbooked by 40 effectively always have a No-Show rate of 38 to 42.
Overbooking is NOT the monster. Overbooking is beneficial for all three of the primary stakeholders involved: leisure travelers (far advance purchase, low fare), business travelers (buying the specific tickets likely to push a flight into oversell status), and the airline trying to fill all of their seats.

If they can't oversell, then the whole revenue model changes. Higher fares on the lowest end, and more frustrated business travelers who can't book the flights they want on short notice. And planes that go out with empty seats, even though willing buyers would have filled them.

The real monster, beyond United's toxic corporate culture, is that the current costs of IDB are trivial, and thus the efforts made to VDB are often trivial - as they were in Chicago on Sunday night. It took an incredible case of unnecessary police brutality caught on film to even get us to have this conversation. Hopefully the conversation will lead to some meaningful rights for passengers, including some significant IDB compensation as part of that, but I hope it does not lead to an end to overbooking.
pinniped is offline  
Old Apr 13, 2017, 9:17 am
  #4663  
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 143
Broken nose, two teeth out, concussion.

And Munoz called it a "bloody nose."
George Purcell is offline  
Old Apr 13, 2017, 9:20 am
  #4664  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: MCI
Programs: AA Gold 1MM, AS MVP, UA Silver, WN A-List, Marriott LT Titanium, HH Diamond
Posts: 52,575
Originally Posted by George Purcell
Broken nose, two teeth out, concussion.

And Munoz called it a "bloody nose."
Hey, sometimes when the cops are workin' a guy over, he falls and his face runs into stuff... It just can't be avoided.
pinniped is offline  
Old Apr 13, 2017, 9:22 am
  #4665  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,114
Originally Posted by halls120
Even undercover cops put on windbreakers that say "FBI" or "Police" if they expect to interact with the public in an enforcement capacity. Sending poorly outfitted officers on board an airplane was stupid.
I fully agree but how hard is it to get a windbreaker that says Police or some such? Bet I can buy any number of them.
Boggie Dog is offline  


Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.