Apr 10, 2017, 8:42 pm
Last edit by: WineCountryUA
WELCOME, THREAD GUIDELINES and SUMMARY PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING
If you are new to us, welcome to FlyerTalk! Who we are: FlyerTalk features discussions and chat boards that cover the most up-to-date traveler information; an interactive community dedicated to the topic of travel (not politics or arguments about politics or religion, etc. – those discussion are best in the OMNI forum)
The incident discussed in this thread has touched a nerve for many, and many posters are passionate about their opinions and concerns. However we should still have a civil and respectful discussion of this topic. This is because FlyerTalk is meant to be a friendly, helpful, and collegial community. (Rule 12.)
1. The normal FlyerTalk Rules apply. (Including not discussing moderation actions in thread). Please be particularly attentive to "discussing the idea and not the poster" when you have a disagreement. Civility and mutual respect are still expected and are what we owe each other as a community.
2. You are expected to respect the FlyerTalk community's diversity, and therefore refrain from posting inflammatory comments about race, religion, culture, politics, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. Do not cite, copy, or report on such.
3. While you can disagree with an opinion, the holder of that opinion has the same right to their opinion as you have to yours. We request all to respect that and disagree or discuss their point of views without getting overly personal and without attacking the other poster(s). This is expected as a requirement in FT Rule 12.
4. Overly exaggerative posts as well as posts with information that has been posted several times previously may be summarily deleted.
5. In addition, those who repeatedly fail to comply with FlyerTalk Rules, may be subjected to FlyerTalk disciplinary actions and, e.g., have membership privileges suspended, or masked from this forum.
If you have questions about the Rules or concerns about what another has posted in this or other threads in this forum, please do not post about that. Rather, notify the moderators by using the alert symbol within each post or email or send a private message to us moderators.
Let’s have this discussion in a way that, when we look back on it, we can be proud of how we handled ourselves as a community.
The United Moderator team:
J.Edward
l'etoile
Ocn Vw 1K
Pat89339
WineCountryUA
N.B. PLEASE do not alter the contents of this moderator note
CHICAGO, April 27, 2017 /PRNewswire/ -- We are pleased to report that United and Dr. Dao have reached an amicable resolution of the unfortunate incident that occurred aboard flight 3411. We look forward to implementing the improvements we have announced, which will put our customers at the center of everything we do.
What facts do we know?
- UA3411, operated by Republic Airways, ORD-SDF on Sunday, April 9, 2017. UA3411 was the second to last flight to SDF for United. AA3509 and UA4771 were the two remaining departures for the day. Also, AA and DL had connecting options providing for same-day arrival in SDF.
- After the flight was fully boarded, United determined four seats were needed to accommodate crew to SDF for a flight on Monday.
- United solicited volunteers for VDB. (BUT stopped at $800 in UA$s, not cash). Chose not to go to the levels such as 1350 that airlines have been known to go even in case of weather impacted disruption)
- After receiving no volunteers for $800 vouchers, a passenger volunteered for $1,600 and was "laughed at" and refused, United determined four passengers to be removed from the flight.
- One passenger refused and Chicago Aviation Security Officers were called to forcibly remove the passenger.
- The passenger hit the armrest in the aisle and received a concussion, a broken nose, a bloodied lip, and the loss of two teeth.
- After being removed from the plane, the passenger re-boarded saying "I need to go home" repeatedly, before being removed again.
- United spokesman Jonathan Guerin said the flight was sold out — but not oversold. Instead, United and regional affiliate Republic Airlines – the unit that operated Flight 3411 – decided they had to remove four passengers from the flight to accommodate crewmembers who were needed in Louisville the next day for a “downline connection.”
United Express Flight 3411 Review and Action Report - released 27 April 2017
Videos
- Passenger one row behind and on the aisle footage BEFORE man was dragged off https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=655_1492004707
- Videos of man being removed https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4b7_1491983214 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nAZEk6nsNE
- Video of man re-entering plane https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNEQDWpYbZA (link dead)
Internal Communication by Oscar Munoz
Oscar Munoz sent an internal communication to UA employees (sources: View From The Wing, Chicago Tribune):
Dear Team,
Like you, I was upset to see and hear about what happened last night aboard United Express Flight 3411 headed from Chicago to Louisville. While the facts and circumstances are still evolving, especially with respect to why this customer defied Chicago Aviation Security Officers the way he did, to give you a clearer picture of what transpired, I've included below a recap from the preliminary reports filed by our employees.
As you will read, this situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact Chicago Aviation Security Officers to help. Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.
I do, however, believe there are lessons we can learn from this experience, and we are taking a close look at the circumstances surrounding this incident. Treating our customers and each other with respect and dignity is at the core of who we are, and we must always remember this no matter how challenging the situation.
Oscar
Summary of Flight 3411
Like you, I was upset to see and hear about what happened last night aboard United Express Flight 3411 headed from Chicago to Louisville. While the facts and circumstances are still evolving, especially with respect to why this customer defied Chicago Aviation Security Officers the way he did, to give you a clearer picture of what transpired, I've included below a recap from the preliminary reports filed by our employees.
As you will read, this situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact Chicago Aviation Security Officers to help. Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.
I do, however, believe there are lessons we can learn from this experience, and we are taking a close look at the circumstances surrounding this incident. Treating our customers and each other with respect and dignity is at the core of who we are, and we must always remember this no matter how challenging the situation.
Oscar
Summary of Flight 3411
- On Sunday, April 9, after United Express Flight 3411 was fully boarded, United's gate agents were approached by crewmembers that were told they needed to board the flight.
- We sought volunteers and then followed our involuntary denial of boarding process (including offering up to $1,000 in compensation) and when we approached one of these passengers to explain apologetically that he was being denied boarding, he raised his voice and refused to comply with crew member instructions.
- He was approached a few more times after that in order to gain his compliance to come off the aircraft, and each time he refused and became more and more disruptive and belligerent.
- Our agents were left with no choice but to call Chicago Aviation Security Officers to assist in removing the customer from the flight. He repeatedly declined to leave.
- Chicago Aviation Security Officers were unable to gain his cooperation and physically removed him from the flight as he continued to resist - running back onto the aircraft in defiance of both our crew and security officials.
Dear Team,
The truly horrific event that occurred on this flight has elicited many responses from all of us: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments, and one above all: my deepest apologies for what happened. Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard. No one should ever be mistreated this way.
I want you to know that we take full responsibility and we will work to make it right.
It’s never too late to do the right thing. I have committed to our customers and our employees that we are going to fix what’s broken so this never happens again. This will include a thorough review of crew movement, our policies for incentivizing volunteers in these situations, how we handle oversold situations and an examination of how we partner with airport authorities and local law enforcement. We’ll communicate the results of our review by April 30th.
I promise you we will do better.
Sincerely,
Oscar
The truly horrific event that occurred on this flight has elicited many responses from all of us: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments, and one above all: my deepest apologies for what happened. Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard. No one should ever be mistreated this way.
I want you to know that we take full responsibility and we will work to make it right.
It’s never too late to do the right thing. I have committed to our customers and our employees that we are going to fix what’s broken so this never happens again. This will include a thorough review of crew movement, our policies for incentivizing volunteers in these situations, how we handle oversold situations and an examination of how we partner with airport authorities and local law enforcement. We’ll communicate the results of our review by April 30th.
I promise you we will do better.
Sincerely,
Oscar
Each flight you take with us represents an important promise we make to you, our customer. It's not simply that we make sure you reach your destination safely and on time, but also that you will be treated with the highest level of service and the deepest sense of dignity and respect.
Earlier this month, we broke that trust when a passenger was forcibly removed from one of our planes. We can never say we are sorry enough for what occurred, but we also know meaningful actions will speak louder than words.
For the past several weeks, we have been urgently working to answer two questions: How did this happen, and how can we do our best to ensure this never happens again?
It happened because our corporate policies were placed ahead of our shared values. Our procedures got in the way of our employees doing what they know is right.
Fixing that problem starts now with changing how we fly, serve and respect our customers. This is a turning point for all of us here at United – and as CEO, it's my responsibility to make sure that we learn from this experience and redouble our efforts to put our customers at the center of everything we do.
That’s why we announced that we will no longer ask law enforcement to remove customers from a flight and customers will not be required to give up their seat once on board – except in matters of safety or security.
We also know that despite our best efforts, when things don’t go the way they should, we need to be there for you to make things right. There are several new ways we’re going to do just that.
We will increase incentives for voluntary rebooking up to $10,000 and will be eliminating the red tape on permanently lost bags with a new "no-questions-asked" $1,500 reimbursement policy. We will also be rolling out a new app for our employees that will enable them to provide on-the-spot goodwill gestures in the form of miles, travel credit and other amenities when your experience with us misses the mark. You can learn more about these commitments and many other changes at hub.united.com.
While these actions are important, I have found myself reflecting more broadly on the role we play and the responsibilities we have to you and the communities we serve.
I believe we must go further in redefining what United's corporate citizenship looks like in our society. If our chief good as a company is only getting you to and from your destination, that would show a lack of moral imagination on our part. You can and ought to expect more from us, and we intend to live up to those higher expectations in the way we embody social responsibility and civic leadership everywhere we operate. I hope you will see that pledge express itself in our actions going forward, of which these initial, though important, changes are merely a first step.
Our goal should be nothing less than to make you truly proud to say, "I fly United."
Ultimately, the measure of our success is your satisfaction and the past several weeks have moved us to go further than ever before in elevating your experience with us. I know our 87,000 employees have taken this message to heart, and they are as energized as ever to fulfill our promise to serve you better with each flight and earn the trust you’ve given us.
We are working harder than ever for the privilege to serve you and I know we will be stronger, better and the customer-focused airline you expect and deserve.
With Great Gratitude,
Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines
Earlier this month, we broke that trust when a passenger was forcibly removed from one of our planes. We can never say we are sorry enough for what occurred, but we also know meaningful actions will speak louder than words.
For the past several weeks, we have been urgently working to answer two questions: How did this happen, and how can we do our best to ensure this never happens again?
It happened because our corporate policies were placed ahead of our shared values. Our procedures got in the way of our employees doing what they know is right.
Fixing that problem starts now with changing how we fly, serve and respect our customers. This is a turning point for all of us here at United – and as CEO, it's my responsibility to make sure that we learn from this experience and redouble our efforts to put our customers at the center of everything we do.
That’s why we announced that we will no longer ask law enforcement to remove customers from a flight and customers will not be required to give up their seat once on board – except in matters of safety or security.
We also know that despite our best efforts, when things don’t go the way they should, we need to be there for you to make things right. There are several new ways we’re going to do just that.
We will increase incentives for voluntary rebooking up to $10,000 and will be eliminating the red tape on permanently lost bags with a new "no-questions-asked" $1,500 reimbursement policy. We will also be rolling out a new app for our employees that will enable them to provide on-the-spot goodwill gestures in the form of miles, travel credit and other amenities when your experience with us misses the mark. You can learn more about these commitments and many other changes at hub.united.com.
While these actions are important, I have found myself reflecting more broadly on the role we play and the responsibilities we have to you and the communities we serve.
I believe we must go further in redefining what United's corporate citizenship looks like in our society. If our chief good as a company is only getting you to and from your destination, that would show a lack of moral imagination on our part. You can and ought to expect more from us, and we intend to live up to those higher expectations in the way we embody social responsibility and civic leadership everywhere we operate. I hope you will see that pledge express itself in our actions going forward, of which these initial, though important, changes are merely a first step.
Our goal should be nothing less than to make you truly proud to say, "I fly United."
Ultimately, the measure of our success is your satisfaction and the past several weeks have moved us to go further than ever before in elevating your experience with us. I know our 87,000 employees have taken this message to heart, and they are as energized as ever to fulfill our promise to serve you better with each flight and earn the trust you’ve given us.
We are working harder than ever for the privilege to serve you and I know we will be stronger, better and the customer-focused airline you expect and deserve.
With Great Gratitude,
Oscar Munoz
CEO
United Airlines
- Chicago Aviation Department said on the Monday afternoon after the incident that the officer who had dragged the passenger off the plane had been placed on leave pending an investigation. Spokesperson Karen Pride said in an email that "The incident on United flight 3411 was not in accordance with our standard operating procedure and the actions of the aviation security officer are obviously not condoned by the Department."
- 4/12/17: Two more Chicago Aviation officers involved are suspended
- Muńoz does ABC interview, announcing United will no longer use law enforcement to remove passengers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90jSUe_vdhM
- United announces policy change that crews traveling on their aircraft must be booked at least 60 minutes prior to departure.
- United releases multiple changes in overbooking / denied boarding policies "We are making changes to ensure that we always put customers first" (http://newsroom.united.com/2017-04-2...mer-Experience) released 27 April 2017
- Statement from United Airlines Regarding Resolution with Dr. David Dao - released 27 April 2017
- Response to Senate Commerce Committee questions - 1 May 2017
- United Airlines PR Boss to Step Down
- James Long, one of several officers involved in removing David Dao from the April 9, 2017, flight to make room for airline employees, filed suit on Tuesday against United, Chicago’s Department of Aviation and its commissioner, Ginger Evans. The lawsuit, filed in the circuit court of Cook County, Illinois, alleges he was not properly trained on how to use force.
Poll: Your Opinion of United Airlines
Poll link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/KP68GYG
Results link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/results...Q6B2B/instant/
Reference MaterialResults link: https://www.surveymonkey.com/results...Q6B2B/instant/
UA's Customer Commitment says:
Occasionally we may not be able to provide you with a seat on a specific flight, even if you hold a ticket, have checked in, are present to board on time, and comply with other requirements. This is called an oversale, and occurs when restrictions apply to operating a particular flight safely (such as aircraft weight limits); when we have to substitute a smaller aircraft in place of a larger aircraft that was originally scheduled; or if more customers have checked in and are prepared to board than we have available seats.
If your flight is in an oversale situation, you will not be denied a seat until we first ask for volunteers willing to give up their confirmed seats. If there are not enough volunteers, we will deny boarding to passengers in accordance with our written policy on boarding priority. If you are involuntarily denied boarding and have complied with our check-in and other applicable rules, we will give you a written statement that describes your rights and explains how we determine boarding priority for an oversold flight. You will generally be entitled to compensation and transportation on an alternate flight.
We make complete rules for the payment of compensation, as well as our policy about boarding priorities, available at airports we serve. We will follow these rules to ensure you are treated fairly. Please be aware that you may be denied boarding without compensation if you do not check in on time or do not meet certain other requirements, or if we offer you alternative transportation that is planned to arrive at your destination or first stopover no later than one hour after the planned arrival time of your original flight.
CoC is here: https://www.united.com/web/en-US/con...-carriage.aspxIf your flight is in an oversale situation, you will not be denied a seat until we first ask for volunteers willing to give up their confirmed seats. If there are not enough volunteers, we will deny boarding to passengers in accordance with our written policy on boarding priority. If you are involuntarily denied boarding and have complied with our check-in and other applicable rules, we will give you a written statement that describes your rights and explains how we determine boarding priority for an oversold flight. You will generally be entitled to compensation and transportation on an alternate flight.
We make complete rules for the payment of compensation, as well as our policy about boarding priorities, available at airports we serve. We will follow these rules to ensure you are treated fairly. Please be aware that you may be denied boarding without compensation if you do not check in on time or do not meet certain other requirements, or if we offer you alternative transportation that is planned to arrive at your destination or first stopover no later than one hour after the planned arrival time of your original flight.
Man pulled off of overbooked flight UA3411 (ORD-SDF) 9 Apr 2017 {Settlement reached}
Apr 11, 2017, 11:06 am
#2926
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: BDL, JFK
Posts: 658
this is going too far. we need to take action and start to roll back some of the pro-airline and pro-merger attitude in the industry. I'd suggest the following: (call your Congress jockeys)
1. Use the Sherman act to roll back mergers and outright break up United. (and possibly American too)
2. Set legal limitations on how many number of seats can be installed in certain airplane models and body types.
3. Do away with the TSA fee (and get rid of TSA)
4. Disclose airlines lobbying activities and industry donation to political campaigns with more scrutiny
5. Let foreign airlines fly US domestic routes by making it easier for ex-USA airlines to compete - you can look this up.... it's just a stroke of a pen.
6. Let airlines go bankrupt. It's OK for them go belly up. Some of them deserve it. Consumer lose the hub or the easy connection either way through a merger or a bankruptcy anyway.
this has gone too far......
1. Use the Sherman act to roll back mergers and outright break up United. (and possibly American too)
2. Set legal limitations on how many number of seats can be installed in certain airplane models and body types.
3. Do away with the TSA fee (and get rid of TSA)
4. Disclose airlines lobbying activities and industry donation to political campaigns with more scrutiny
5. Let foreign airlines fly US domestic routes by making it easier for ex-USA airlines to compete - you can look this up.... it's just a stroke of a pen.
6. Let airlines go bankrupt. It's OK for them go belly up. Some of them deserve it. Consumer lose the hub or the easy connection either way through a merger or a bankruptcy anyway.
this has gone too far......
Apr 11, 2017, 11:06 am
#2927
Moderator, OneWorld
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: SEA
Programs: RAA RIP; AA ExEXP
Posts: 11,803
If this has already been posted, I'll remove it.
Apr 11, 2017, 11:07 am
#2928
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2003
Programs: UA 1K 1MM (finally!), IHG AMB-Spire, HH Diamond
Posts: 60,174
along with saying the flight can't leave without volunteers
also, why are some news stations still showing and sullying the tulip on their video feeds. This is a COdbaUA bingo cage organization issue now. UAX subsidiary no less
Apr 11, 2017, 11:09 am
#2929
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 3
I'm delurking to chime in. Be kind. 
In June 2005 I was a pax on AA, DFW to DCA, early afternoon. The flight was full. After I'd boarded the flight, stowed my bag, buckled in, and cracked open my book, a flight attendant came to my seat and told me I had to leave the plane. When I asked why, she indicated that she had no answer for me and that I would have to speak to someone outside the plane. She was unfriendly, stern, and there was no ask here, she was telling me -- I had to get off the plane. I was upset but in control and to be honest, more confused than anything else.
Much embarrassed, I complied. I was told by the GA that there was a "computer glitch" and directed to the next AA flight to DCA. I then spent several hours in DFW, trying to get on a flight home. I was bumped at least twice at the gate, after getting on a list. Finally, a GA took pity upon me, and I ended up getting to DCA after midnight.
My subsequent letter to AA went unanswered. I never received nor was offered compensation.
Later that year, my Dad died suddenly and I was bumped at check-in by AC on my flight home. I burst into tears, his funeral was in the late afternoon, but AC was intransigent. Long story short, but US Airways came through for me when a gentleman who overheard the saga offered, without being asked, to give up his seat on a flight that was departing in time for me to get to where I needed to be. He was extremely kind during a very difficult time. We, the collective we, need to be more like that guy.
I was a relative newbie in the realm of flying at that time and didn't know my rights. I suspect that this event is going to push a lot of folks toward reading the fine print.
In June 2005 I was a pax on AA, DFW to DCA, early afternoon. The flight was full. After I'd boarded the flight, stowed my bag, buckled in, and cracked open my book, a flight attendant came to my seat and told me I had to leave the plane. When I asked why, she indicated that she had no answer for me and that I would have to speak to someone outside the plane. She was unfriendly, stern, and there was no ask here, she was telling me -- I had to get off the plane. I was upset but in control and to be honest, more confused than anything else.
Much embarrassed, I complied. I was told by the GA that there was a "computer glitch" and directed to the next AA flight to DCA. I then spent several hours in DFW, trying to get on a flight home. I was bumped at least twice at the gate, after getting on a list. Finally, a GA took pity upon me, and I ended up getting to DCA after midnight.
My subsequent letter to AA went unanswered. I never received nor was offered compensation.
Later that year, my Dad died suddenly and I was bumped at check-in by AC on my flight home. I burst into tears, his funeral was in the late afternoon, but AC was intransigent. Long story short, but US Airways came through for me when a gentleman who overheard the saga offered, without being asked, to give up his seat on a flight that was departing in time for me to get to where I needed to be. He was extremely kind during a very difficult time. We, the collective we, need to be more like that guy.
I was a relative newbie in the realm of flying at that time and didn't know my rights. I suspect that this event is going to push a lot of folks toward reading the fine print.
Apr 11, 2017, 11:09 am
#2930
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: London (LCY)
Programs: BA bronze, Hilton gold, Marriott gold, IHG plat, Meliá gold, Radisson gold, Hyatt disc, AmexPlat
Posts: 977
Not moving does not force a physical response. It should have prompted an increased cash offer. If you want a customer to waive his contractual right to remain in his seat, then you offer him money, not beat him up directly or by proxy.
Apr 11, 2017, 11:09 am
#2931
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,012
Perhaps there's all sorts of case law out there that conclusively establishes otherwise, but from a straightforward reading of the CoC there's an obvious point to be made here.
(Granted, it's irrelevant. Whether United's actions or aviation security's actions were allowed or legal doesn't mean they were not also inappropriate, unethical, or just plain wrong.)
Apr 11, 2017, 11:10 am
#2932
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: SNA
Programs: AA gold, DL Gold, HHonors Diamond, Hyatt Explorist, IHG Plat
Posts: 446
It is a dissimilar situation. A similar situation would be if concerts sold more tickets than they had seats available, then we could redirect mall cops to protect national security at Kiss concerts!
Apr 11, 2017, 11:10 am
#2933
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Orange County, CA, USA
Programs: AA (Life Plat), Marriott (Life Titanium) and every other US program
Posts: 6,411
The crux of my disagreement with you centers on this. He did not "force" a physical response. The airline had other options and it is a disgusting society that tolerates institutional violence as a course of action at such a low threshold. They could have reasoned with him, talked to him and continued talking to him until they convinced him or someone else volunteered to go and take higher compensation. There were MANY options on the table at this point.
Apr 11, 2017, 11:11 am
#2934
Join Date: Apr 2011
Programs: WN, AA, UA, DL
Posts: 1,313
The crux of my disagreement with you centers on this. He did not "force" a physical response. The airline had other options and it is a disgusting society that tolerates institutional violence as a course of action at such a low threshold. They could have reasoned with him, talked to him and continued talking to him until they convinced him or someone else volunteered to go and take higher compensation. There were MANY options on the table at this point.
Apr 11, 2017, 11:12 am
#2935
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Gila, NM, USA
Posts: 1,044
I'll bet you too Live4Upgrade
I used to fly SW but after they removed Kevin Smith that way I'd never fly them again. I don't even check their prices despite living in the middle of their territory and my wife's family being from Houston. I book travel for myself and a number of others so that incident many years ago has surely cost them sales, hard for me to say how many since I don't even look at their fares anymore.
I'm a big guy and I'd guess the Kevin Smith incident had more impact on those of us who are big. This thing with UA 3411 I think will similarly have a disproportionate effect on Chinese travelers. I think you'll see a decent number of those who have the choice making efforts to avoid the airline. And UA has invested heavily in routes from China to the US. Sincx predicted costs heading toward 9 figures and I certainly wouldn't be surprised. Of course it will be impossible to quantify an exact figure.
When I heard about this yesterday I hoped that UA would take responsibility and change. But seeing the belligerent response from Oscar Munoz, UA now deserves it if they become a pariah airline for many fliers globally. We certainly won't be flying with them.
Apr 11, 2017, 11:13 am
#2936
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,012
But if 100,000 other people have been IDB'd before they got on the plane, and if 10,000 other people have complied with a request from UA personnel to leave the plane in similar circumstances, and if 100 others waited for LEO and then complied, and if 10 got physically pulled off the plane (without hitting their face on the seat and/or without being videoed), then how should UA have known that THIS time with THIS passenger it should be different?
Apr 11, 2017, 11:14 am
#2937
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Independent! But mostly BKK, BCN, SFO, PDX, SEA...
Programs: Lawl COVID
Posts: 1,060
AFAIC, he could have been convicted of having a rave party with gay guys and goats in compromising positions and was on his way to Louisville to report for his sentence for that conviction. It still doesn't matter. United effed up and created an unnecessary situation and then exacerbated it by playing the same "I'll get mine, and take yours" game they've been playing since the merger. It should never have come down to demanding people leave their paid seats to accommodate employees that could have easily been flown on another plane, whether it was a scheduled flight or they chartered something. But United can get away with this kind of crap because people let them, and it's crystal clear who's more important to United's bottom line...your seat is subject to forfeiture at their whim, regardless of class of service or fare paid.
But let the character assassinations continue...!
Apr 11, 2017, 11:14 am
#2938
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: K+K
Programs: *G
Posts: 4,871
Reading all these posts over the past few days have been quite surprising:
1. I find myself defending UA for once
2. People think a DYKWIA is a hero for not complying with UA staff and resisting security
3. People think its OK for a DYKWIA to delay the travel plans of hundreds of people
4. People suddenly think written IDB procedures which have existed for years and are followed daily are immoral.
Guess what, when you force a physical response (even by not moving), it's going to get messy.
In all my flying, I've never personally encountered this type of incident and never worried about it. However, seeing people's reactions, I fear that the odds of one DYKWIA disrupting my travel plans could be much higher than I thought
1. I find myself defending UA for once
2. People think a DYKWIA is a hero for not complying with UA staff and resisting security
3. People think its OK for a DYKWIA to delay the travel plans of hundreds of people
4. People suddenly think written IDB procedures which have existed for years and are followed daily are immoral.
Guess what, when you force a physical response (even by not moving), it's going to get messy.
In all my flying, I've never personally encountered this type of incident and never worried about it. However, seeing people's reactions, I fear that the odds of one DYKWIA disrupting my travel plans could be much higher than I thought
This is about as far removed from DYKWIA behavior as can be. Unless we have a very conflicting fundamental understanding of what that means.
"I demand a free upgrade to F seat because i fly 5 times a year"
is a bit different from
"Im sitting perfectly still in the assigned seat i paid for, why are you throwing me off this plane".
As an example of tremendous irony, one of the few dissenting voices here against the bleeding pax, has himself complained on FT about negligence from airline staff for not paying attention to the fact that he cut himself shaving just prior to flying............
Apr 11, 2017, 11:14 am
#2939
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas
Programs: DL Platinum, AA Lifetime Gold, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Platinum, Radisson Premium
Posts: 6,638
Is it somehow more acceptable for them to mistreat the person because the person might be LGBT? I really don't like the line you are taking here. Exactly how are why would this (even if true) even remotely relevant to the discussion? How does the fact that the man might be LGBT make the 'case closed'?
And just because the person might have had anger or mental issues in the past does that mean that the airline can treat him as they did? Was he yanked from the flight for being disruptive or belligerent? I didn't see that.
And its pretty much irrelevant as to the facts as seen by the wider public. But yet you cling to it.
And just because the person might have had anger or mental issues in the past does that mean that the airline can treat him as they did? Was he yanked from the flight for being disruptive or belligerent? I didn't see that.
And its pretty much irrelevant as to the facts as seen by the wider public. But yet you cling to it.
"Case quit that job due to “inappropriate” remarks made by Dao, who then pursued him and arranged to give him prescription drugs in exchange for sexual acts, according to the documents, filed last year."
Past beligerent behavior is relevant to present day beligerent behavior.
http://nypost.com/2017/04/11/doctor-...drugs-for-sex/
Apr 11, 2017, 11:15 am
#2940
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 43
The meaning the DoT regs place on the word "boarding" is of no consequence. The DoT regs impose the minimum rights that airlines must afford to passengers, and airlines are free to afford passengers additional rights and benefits than those required by the DoT regs. This is precisely what United did when it used the phrase "boarding" without specifying that it intended the word to be defined in a significantly narrower fashion than the meaning ordinary people assign to the word. After all, United's own CEO said the doctor had boarded the plane.
If interpreting the word "boarding" produces a result that is less than practical for United, they should have spent a little more time and effort on drafting the CoC in a manner that conveyed their true, though undisclosed, intentions. Perhaps that would have been a better use of United's resources than causing paying passengers who have "boarded" its planes to be violently assaulted and dragged of.
Last edited by Summa Cum Laude Touro Law Center; Apr 11, 2017 at 11:23 am