aindfan

During the non-summer months, we get the 7PM EWR-SEA followed by 11PM SEA-EWR turn operated by the sCO 752 (16J lie-flat seats). Unfortunately, it's not catered with pillows or blankets in J since it's not a p.s. route, but at least getting the lie-flat seats is nice.

bocastephen

How is Delta's program anywhere near UA MP? It takes 300,000 miles to fly from Des Moines to Buffalo in coach. I can usually find discount award seats on UA or a partner whenever I need one with some minor flexibility. TPAC upgrades are reasonable to get with some advanced planning and flexibility.

I know exactly how many miles to expect on UA or a partner, it's not that hard to figure out.

Now is you suggested Delta has a superior product, better inflight service and more polished and professional employees, then I completely agree.

eponymous_coward

LOL, no. "We're going to expand in a city where two airlines have hubs and a market we left because it wasn't a good play for us, because some dude on FT wants to fly us more. Let's start some random Hawaii markets that have multiple carriers and be the FOURTH nonstop to Tokyo! That's a sure winner!".

If you have significant operations in the #1 and #2 markets on the West Coast,, trying to do #3 because, um, reasons isn't high on the priority list. UA has zero hubs in the entire Atlantic SE between IAD and IAH, which is a pretty large chunk of US population. If anything they should probably think about something there if they are jonesing for a new hub or focus city. Of course DL is way ahead of them and trying on RDU for size to go with ATL because DL is, well, DL and not UA/AA (who seem fine to just milk their fortress hubs and existing networks instead of trying anything like DL does).

That thread title is garbage because it was started by an ex-VX flier. AS never serves alcoholic PDBs (except for rare occasions when an FA decides to go above and beyond). It's water or maybe coffee in the morning. What happened is the ex-VX service is now standardized on AS standards (no PDBs).

xliioper

Domestic awards are one of the few Skymiles strong points ( DSM-BUF is available from 20K RT by the way). Internationally (and international J in particular), I would agree. Just trying to get the facts straight here. However, most folks don't think like FTer's and value things like schedule, reliability, and cost ahead of miles when choosing an airline.

evergrn

Don't really need this snide remark.
What I posted is nothing more than what I wish for.
Also I expressed no illusions about UA turning SEA into a hub or focus city. If UA would add on several more flights a day on select routes, that would help and also it could make sense for UA.

There're only 2 nonstops to TYO by the way (3 to ICN). About 5 years ago, there were 4 nonstops to TYO and that was too much. But I would think a 3rd nonstop would do well, esp if it's Star or OneWorld.

EmailKid

Sadly, savvy travelers rarely use reward miles for domestic travel as it's pretty much the least value for their miles.

evergrn

Agree with everything you say. But with regards to DL having superior service and more professional employees, I feel they're selective.
DL seems to be selective in which routes to put their best foot forward on. SEA-BOS, SEA-JFK are different experiences than anything domestic in/out of ATL, for example.
I've had my share of mediocre service on AS and UA, but I can say that the crew I had on DL's ATL-CLE flight this past winter was the worst I've experienced in recent memory.
Maybe my perception is wrong, as my DL sample size is not huge.


Absolutely.

jsloan

How is DL adding service at RDU any different than UA adding service at SEA? Neither make much sense... except as an additional connection point to allow them to expand without trying to push even more capacity through their main hub. The problem is that SEA isn't a particularly useful connection point from anywhere.

That's pretty much the definition of a focus city.

Seattle's new UA flights are coming at PAE, once the FAA's environmental impact study is complete. The chance of them trying to compete head-to-head with DL and AS is slim to none.

evergrn

I don't think so.
SEA currently has ~50 daily departures to only 7 cities (all hubs). Adding several more flights total per day to existing destinations plus 1 or 2 more cities wouldn't make SEA a focus city.
Take BOS for example. BOS currently has >70 daily departures to 8 cities. I don't think too many people would consider BOS to be a focus city for UA.

To me, a focus city would be like SAN for AS, RDU for DL.

RobOnLI

I did not say DL is a better program overall. I said it has its advantages.

One of the biggest advantages is the fact you know exactly how many miles you will earn on a trip with codeshare flights. You DO NOT know this information in UA's program. There is no published chart between *A carriers with fare class mapping. A "T" fare on a UA-coded, TG-operated flight earns what? It's anyone's guess. MP can't even answer that question. You proposed it's easy to figure out. Please tell us then. Do you have a chart? (I'm using UA/TG as an example but my point is made I think). Booking codeshares in *A is a bad idea if you want to earn miles or at least know what you will earn. Therefore, DL's program is far better in this regard because marketing carrier is all that matters. My point in the earlier post remains the same.

And your comment about 300K miles is sort of tongue-in-cheek but there are definitely examples of ridiculously high domestic award tickets on DL. We all know United is moving that way as well. While they may put caps on award tickets, UA will be in the same boat in the next year or two. It's already started with "dynamic award pricing" on UA routes. Though there are no reports of 300K just yet. And they are also rare on DL.

Bottom line...each program has its benefits.

-RM

jsloan

Some airlines are worse than others. Within UA's JVs, there is usually fare class alignment. Outside of the JV, the best that you can do is to look up the booking class that would be required to route the same fare onto the other airline's native flight number and hope. However, keep in mind that most travelers rarely, if ever, encounter codeshare flights. (excluding United Express ).

DL's program is also better for people who want to achieve DL status whilst flying partner airlines, since they got rid of the "MQD on 006 tickets only" rule. In fact, with the right mix of discount business class or PE fares on partner airlines, you can achieve Diamond (15K MQD) for less than UA 1K (12K PQD), as you can sometimes earn far more MQD than you paid in terms of the fare.

To be fair, the fact that UA's Everyday Awards are currently capped, and the Saver Awards still exist, is a huge benefit of the UA program vs. DL. You won't (currently) see a 300K BUF-DSM ticket on UA. You could on DL, even if we can all agree that you probably won't.

eponymous_coward

I want winning lottery tickets. It doesn't mean they are real possibilities just because I want them.

"Adding several more flights a day on select routes" that aren't UA hubs is pretty much the definition of "focus city". Hawaii service in markets served by three carriers (AS, DL, HA) doesn't make any sense except to add capacity and drive down prices. Neither does TYO.

JL is starting service, DL and NH have it. So UA would be a fourth. DL just dropped SEA-HKG (CX picked it up, but they have a hub on one end and an AS partnership on the other) so it's not like SEA is some amazing fountain of riches for airlines with Asia service (and DL has feed in SEA, UA wouldn't, unless it's cheap FTers or Kayakers trying to get XXX-SEA-TYO cheaper than XXX-TYO, XXX being a UA hub). BR dropped a SEA-TPE frequency not too long ago as well.

RDU is a fairly open airport with no airline close to 50% and a bunch of competitors bunched close together, like BOS, where DL could just selectively add service to new destinations and not be running against an airline that already serves a route (or only one competitor). This is different from SEA, where AS and DL between them are at something over 70% and UA is way back at 6%.

evergrn

Again, I merely expressed what I wish for and clarified as such and speculated why I thought it might be feasible. If you don't think it's a possibility, fair enough.

With regards to your focus city comment, I respectfully disagree (see my post 69 ).

Somehow I missed the news about JAL starting SEA route. This is still just speculation, though, right?
SEA used to have 3 daily nonstops to NRT (UA, NWA, AA) back around late 90's ~ early 2000's and that lasted for a while. SEA market's grown a lot since then. You've got 3 daily flights on SEA-ICN. And YVR supports 3 nonstops to TYO in spite of so many other nonstops from there to the rest of Asia (although I would not be surprised if JAL stops that route at some point). I do think SEA could support 3 nonstops to TYO. On the other hand, DL's KIX flight will probably flop again after a year or two.

eponymous_coward

But NRT has shrunk; UA no longer hubs there, DL mostly killed off the NW hub and is flowing connecting traffic to KE at ICN now, and AA doesn't need random cities to put 777s in. It's also not a preferred airport compared to HND for business travel compared to the 1990's. NRT is slowly transitioning to an LCC hub as airlines shift service to HND as they can- think of NRT as LGW and HND as LHR. I simply don't see why SEA-NRT makes any more sense than it did when UA killed it off in the first place. It makes much more sense for NH than UA- at least they can flow connecting traffic XXX-NRT-SEA plus get their own NRT traffic.

A SEA-HND flight is somewhat logical but because of the slot restrictions UA would have to repurpose a different HND flight for it. Dropping SFO-HND for service in a DL hub (SEA-HND) is pretty much the definition of insanity; you can't connect people well (and some of those people would be from SFO, who you just hosed by taking away their nonstop), for service in a "I guess we can't call it a focus city, so whatever" where DL is three times your size, and serves multiple international destinations, and CAN feed flights.

milepig