Post-Southwest Flight Experience And Things United Can Learn
Jul 12, 2016, 6:52 pm
#46
Join Date: Apr 2015
Programs: United Global Services, Amtrak Select Executive
Posts: 4,098
It's not all roses. I avoid WN when I can because of many things, the boarding system being one of them.
EBCI is a perfect case of giving you a disease and then selling you the cure. They take extra revenue by people trying to avoid a problem WN themselves have created: Having to roll the dice and having to interrupt your day 24 hours beforehand to check in. Worse still, the program gets exploited by groups who buy 1, EBCI ticket, and then save seats for their companions..thereby devaluing the product for others that have paid for it. As WN refuses to take a stance on seat saving, don't expect them to make any effort to end this practice. What's more, it really doesn't offer much when you take into account thru pax. If WN simply had assigned seating, none of this would be an issue.
WN is all coach class. As such, the rewards are not that great. You get a free coach seat after a huge amount of flying, but one that is not assigned and still requires you to get into the scrum. No first class..no lounges..no points xferable to intl long hauls.
No bag fee is nice, but let's face it, most of us FF'er never check bags anyhow. No change fees is also nice, but not completely true either if there is a $ differential between flights when you have to pay the diff. Flying 2 times a week for 10 years, I have only ever had to change a flight once anyhow, so for me, it's not an incentive. It may be for those with more fluid schedules.
Fly WN enough, and you will see that the seating system they have is more pain than pleasure. In almost every flight there are kettles who cannot figure it out, companions sneaking on with their lower number companions, line cutting, and a lack of enforcement for boarding order. I prefer to choose my seat beforehand. I know what I am doing, I know where I want to sit, and I know how to get it.
This is subjective, but I also find the experience of WN very very taxing. The whole camp-counselor chumminess schtick, while amusing to the average late middle aged white male AM radio listener, is simply cringy when you have to deal with it a few times a week. The cornball jokes, the stupid hold messages (remember WN Rap?) on their phones, the egalitarian bragging. I prefer an exclusive, NON egalitarian, mature attitude after flying so much. A bit of dignity.
I still fly WN but in very limted circumstances. The flight has to be under 2 hours, direct, and the only available option on the route. Even then I buy Biz Select and hold my nose.
EBCI is a perfect case of giving you a disease and then selling you the cure. They take extra revenue by people trying to avoid a problem WN themselves have created: Having to roll the dice and having to interrupt your day 24 hours beforehand to check in. Worse still, the program gets exploited by groups who buy 1, EBCI ticket, and then save seats for their companions..thereby devaluing the product for others that have paid for it. As WN refuses to take a stance on seat saving, don't expect them to make any effort to end this practice. What's more, it really doesn't offer much when you take into account thru pax. If WN simply had assigned seating, none of this would be an issue.
WN is all coach class. As such, the rewards are not that great. You get a free coach seat after a huge amount of flying, but one that is not assigned and still requires you to get into the scrum. No first class..no lounges..no points xferable to intl long hauls.
No bag fee is nice, but let's face it, most of us FF'er never check bags anyhow. No change fees is also nice, but not completely true either if there is a $ differential between flights when you have to pay the diff. Flying 2 times a week for 10 years, I have only ever had to change a flight once anyhow, so for me, it's not an incentive. It may be for those with more fluid schedules.
Fly WN enough, and you will see that the seating system they have is more pain than pleasure. In almost every flight there are kettles who cannot figure it out, companions sneaking on with their lower number companions, line cutting, and a lack of enforcement for boarding order. I prefer to choose my seat beforehand. I know what I am doing, I know where I want to sit, and I know how to get it.
This is subjective, but I also find the experience of WN very very taxing. The whole camp-counselor chumminess schtick, while amusing to the average late middle aged white male AM radio listener, is simply cringy when you have to deal with it a few times a week. The cornball jokes, the stupid hold messages (remember WN Rap?) on their phones, the egalitarian bragging. I prefer an exclusive, NON egalitarian, mature attitude after flying so much. A bit of dignity.
I still fly WN but in very limted circumstances. The flight has to be under 2 hours, direct, and the only available option on the route. Even then I buy Biz Select and hold my nose.
Jul 12, 2016, 7:05 pm
#47
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Ewa Beach, Hawaii
Posts: 10,909
This is subjective, but I also find the experience of WN very very taxing. The whole camp-counselor chumminess schtick, while amusing to the average late middle aged white male AM radio listener, is simply cringy when you have to deal with it a few times a week. The cornball jokes, the stupid hold messages (remember WN Rap?) on their phones, the egalitarian bragging. I prefer an exclusive, NON egalitarian, mature attitude after flying so much. A bit of dignity.
Jul 13, 2016, 10:17 am
#48
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,808
I am a late middle aged white male (but don't listen to AM radio) and I really hate the campiness/chumminess constant trying to be a party atmosphere of Southwest. I also find it very taxing. I want the quiet of UA and if I want to listen to music or watch a movie or read my e-reader I will. I found on the few Southwest flights I have taken it is hard to concentrate on my e-reader or watching my movie with all the FA's trying to make the flight a party.
Yeah, I am white and middle aged..but not an AM radio listener either.
What we Americans are often credited for is our lack of social oppression. In the US, there is a kind of liberated, relaxed attitude, and it's to our credit most of the time. However, the downside is that we end up lacking any sort of refinement or class compared to our European friends. Southwest is a perfect example of "too casual".
I am sure it is refreshing for the not-so-frequent flier, but having to do it several times a month is like having to have that obnoxious cousin over to visit too often.
Jul 16, 2016, 6:07 pm
#49
Suspended
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: CA, FL, and China.
Programs: UA1K (no longer serviced!), Bonvoy P, Hyatt G
Posts: 704
SJC-SNA-SJC is always a pleasure on Southwest. Better drink selection than United and they almost never even collect my drink vouchers. Got a fat tire and watched live TV en route yesterday.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Jul 16, 2016 at 6:35 pm Reason: Discuss the issues, not the posters
Jul 16, 2016, 9:56 pm
#50
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: VPS
Programs: IHG Diamond, Delta PM, Hilton Gold, Accor Gold, Marriott Silver
Posts: 7,269
While their website might have seemed nice, friendly, and easy for the simple round trip the OP mentioned...Their booking engine is horrible and cumbersome if you need to veer from the simple round trip even slightly, or when you start to frequently book trips with family members and have to re-enter their information every single time.
Meanwhile, United is perfectly willing to tell me the only saver award ticket routing available on the day I'm searching involves Denver-Seattle-Newark-Houston-Penscola. Granted that's not a very good idea, and I do make jokes about it and all, but, hey, at least it's a legal ticket offer.
Jul 16, 2016, 9:59 pm
#51
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Denver, Colorado
Programs: IHG Spire, Hilton Honors Gold, Marriott Titanium, Mileage Plus Gold
Posts: 1,736
Jul 17, 2016, 5:58 pm
#52
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: The place where it gets so hot in the summer some planes can't take off.
Programs: Marriott LT Titanium, WoH Globalist, National EE, United Platinum
Posts: 1,446
When I first started flying weekly or every other week for work I used Southwest, mainly because I was going to St. Louis a lot. It was fine, a short flight, liberal on the drinks, and I enjoyed the FA's attitudes.
First time I used some points to fly myself and a lady friend on a weekend trip I learned why I hate their boarding process. We had A something, but had decided to hit up the wine bar down the terminal in Denver and wanted to finish off our overpriced drinks. We boarded with the mid number B's and ran into more B.S. than I have ever seen in a boarding process. People had laid coats down to save seats for friends/family and we ended up not even being able to sit together, middle seat or not. I asked a flight attendant and they said they can't really enforce it even though it's their policy not to allow it. We said screw it and decided to just order a few extra drinks to make the flight go faster(the FA did not charge us after the first round which was somewhat redeeming though).
In the end I'll take UA any day of the week if I'm not travelling solo, and will only ride SW for reasons others have stated, direct flight under two hours.
First time I used some points to fly myself and a lady friend on a weekend trip I learned why I hate their boarding process. We had A something, but had decided to hit up the wine bar down the terminal in Denver and wanted to finish off our overpriced drinks. We boarded with the mid number B's and ran into more B.S. than I have ever seen in a boarding process. People had laid coats down to save seats for friends/family and we ended up not even being able to sit together, middle seat or not. I asked a flight attendant and they said they can't really enforce it even though it's their policy not to allow it. We said screw it and decided to just order a few extra drinks to make the flight go faster(the FA did not charge us after the first round which was somewhat redeeming though).
In the end I'll take UA any day of the week if I'm not travelling solo, and will only ride SW for reasons others have stated, direct flight under two hours.
Jul 17, 2016, 11:23 pm
#53
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: SBN
Posts: 143
One thing that WN gets right that has not been mentioned is award pricing. Although it is not a robust network (and I do prefer MP to RR), having award tix priced in points/$ means that instead of hunting for the unicorn saver award, prices are based on market rate. I have now flown multiple award RTs (yes, domestic Y) for between 10,000 and 15,000.
Jul 17, 2016, 11:28 pm
#54
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: SEA/ORD/ADB
Programs: TK ELPL (*G), AS 100K (OWE), BA Gold (OWE), Hyatt Globalist, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Plat, IHG Plat
Posts: 7,763
One thing that WN gets right that has not been mentioned is award pricing. Although it is not a robust network (and I do prefer MP to RR), having award tix priced in points/$ means that instead of hunting for the unicorn saver award, prices are based on market rate. I have now flown multiple award RTs (yes, domestic Y) for between 10,000 and 15,000.
). If the cost in miles was directly proportional to the cost in dollars, then the entire special utility of the miles is gone, and they turn into a simple rebate program.
Jul 18, 2016, 7:46 am
#55
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SFO/SJC
Programs: UA Silver, Marriott Gold, Hilton Gold
Posts: 14,891
Quite contrary, I think this is the biggest downside of WN. I use my UA miles when I need to book a really last minute trip (read: fares are super high) or when I want to go to an "obscure" destination with limited service and high fares (e.g. BNA ). If the cost in miles was directly proportional to the cost in dollars, then the entire special utility of the miles is gone, and they turn into a simple rebate program.
). If the cost in miles was directly proportional to the cost in dollars, then the entire special utility of the miles is gone, and they turn into a simple rebate program.For example, in early June, booked a last minute trip CVG to YYZ. Booking a round trip in $ a day before was going to cost me ~$1200. For a trip that's ~410 miles direct each way. If miles were based on fare, it would have been just as exhorbinant a price to use miles. Instead, I was able to book a saver business one-way and saver economy return. I really appreciate the ability to use miles for last-minute, expensive trips like this.
I admit to never having flown WN, mostly because about 80-90% of the time, they don't fly either from/to where I am going. But the times I have looked, they were never cheaper anyway - sometimes same price, but never cheaper. I'd rather have a seat assignment in advance and not have to worry about the find your own seat stuff. I understand WN works for some folks, and that's fine by me. It's not for me though - I'll take Greyhound if figuring out a seat onboard is what I'm looking for.
Jul 18, 2016, 8:25 am
#56
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: DEN
Programs: UA 1P-1MM, Marriott LT Titanium
Posts: 3,930
I have flown WN a decent amount over the last couple years and find them as good as UA. As a Gold, I never get upgrades to F, so those aren't an issue for me. On WN, if I am flying for business, I'll generally pony up for the EBCI. This is especially true if I am going to be in a meeting at the T-24 point. As long as I do EBCI or check in right at T-24, I will have a boarding number that will pretty much ensure me an Aisle seat.
My decision on whether to fly WN or not is schedule based when flying for business and price and schedule based when flying the family. WN isn't always the cheapest, but sometime it is (there is no hard rule on which airline will be cheaper these days). UA has really mucked up the schedules from DEN over the last couple years and there have been many times that their schedule just doesn't work for business trips. For business, WN shows up in our booking system, so I don't need to do a separate check on southwest.com for fares. For families, the 2 free checked bags can be a huge benefit (again, not really an issue for me and my family)
I also almost never connect on WN, so the issues mentioned earlier on this thread about connections don't apply to me, although, I have experienced delays on WN (and ended up in MKE on a GRR-DEN flight once). I also don't have a huge problem with the slimline seats on WN, and will note that they are at least as good, if not better than the UA slimlines on the 319/320. WN seems to like to send me a few drink vouchers every year which is a nice gesture given that I don't have A-list status with them. Makes me feel more appreciated than I do on UA much of the time.
As with all things travel related, you have to figure out what is important to you as a traveler and make the decision based on your criteria. Also, knowing the system is key. If you think that you can check in on WN at T-23 and get a decent boarding position, you are not going to be happy.
My decision on whether to fly WN or not is schedule based when flying for business and price and schedule based when flying the family. WN isn't always the cheapest, but sometime it is (there is no hard rule on which airline will be cheaper these days). UA has really mucked up the schedules from DEN over the last couple years and there have been many times that their schedule just doesn't work for business trips. For business, WN shows up in our booking system, so I don't need to do a separate check on southwest.com for fares. For families, the 2 free checked bags can be a huge benefit (again, not really an issue for me and my family)
I also almost never connect on WN, so the issues mentioned earlier on this thread about connections don't apply to me, although, I have experienced delays on WN (and ended up in MKE on a GRR-DEN flight once). I also don't have a huge problem with the slimline seats on WN, and will note that they are at least as good, if not better than the UA slimlines on the 319/320. WN seems to like to send me a few drink vouchers every year which is a nice gesture given that I don't have A-list status with them. Makes me feel more appreciated than I do on UA much of the time.
As with all things travel related, you have to figure out what is important to you as a traveler and make the decision based on your criteria. Also, knowing the system is key. If you think that you can check in on WN at T-23 and get a decent boarding position, you are not going to be happy.
Jul 18, 2016, 8:30 am
#57
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: PHX
Programs: AS 75K; UA 1MM; Hyatt Globalist; Marriott LTP; Hilton Diamond (Aspire)
Posts: 56,478
Agreed. Their new award system and the slimline seats (plus PQDs) are the main reasons I switched most of my short-haul flying back to UA.
Though if I have to go to BUR or ONT I'll probably stick with WN out of OAK.
Though if I have to go to BUR or ONT I'll probably stick with WN out of OAK.
Jul 18, 2016, 10:09 am
#59
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: MSP
Programs: DL PM, UA Gold, WN, Global Entry; +others wherever miles/points are found
Posts: 14,424
But WN is the clear winner for actually flying things like SJC-BUR, and on something other than a CR2.
Jul 18, 2016, 1:38 pm
#60
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 76
However United gets all my long haul business, because I'd rather not stop 3 times and take 9 hours for an itinerary I can fly direct in 5 with United.
But I do like the idea of hybridizing the UA boarding process.