Dec 31, 2014, 12:15 am
Last edit by: J.Edward
Related New Articles for United/Orbitz vs. Skiplagged.com
(Mod Note: While some FTers have chosen to contribute to skiplagged's legal defense we request a direct link to do so not be placed in the wiki.)
(Mod Note: While some FTers have chosen to contribute to skiplagged's legal defense we request a direct link to do so not be placed in the wiki.)
UA sues "hidden city" search site Skiplagged.com
Dec 30, 2014, 3:38 pm
#151
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The airlines have a fair amount of leverage already - ability to confiscate miles from award program, bill the customer for the difference, refuse to issue any future tickets until the amount is paid - so it is not clear why they are going after the messenger. With current identification requirements, it is virtually impossible to hide, even if you do not try to obtain rewards for the flights. By more aggressive enforcement after the fact, the airlines generate the anticipated revenue, word will eventually get around, kill the goose laying the golden egg without forcing both parties to lawyer up, cause unintended consequences.
About the only carrier I would be willing to piss off is Delta, would not risk wearing out my welcome with any other major US carrier...
About the only carrier I would be willing to piss off is Delta, would not risk wearing out my welcome with any other major US carrier...
Dec 30, 2014, 4:48 pm
#152
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...the court said the plaintiff didn't have a contract claim, and because ADA pre-empts state-law-based consumer/business fraud claims, their appropriate avenue for redress of their claim was the DoT.
In this case, United is arguing a contract claim.
Legally, the answer is actually "maybe". But it's a VERY different argument than if you're already in a contract, and I come along and say "I'll give you $100 to break your contract with Company X." It's also insanely difficult to prove pre-contract interference with liability attached, even when you have piles of examples where such activity may have occurred.
This all, of course, assumes that the hidden-city ticketing provisions of the contract are even enforceable. If I book a ticket XXX-YYY-ZZZ-YYY-XXX, and I decide for whatever reason not to get on the plane for the YYY-XXX flight, can the airline really force me to pay a higher airfare for that decision?
Can you legally contract someone to sit in a metal tube in the air for some period of time without any consideration?
I think you'd have a hard time arguing in court that a passenger owes an airline anything for not getting on a plane and not going anywhere... it's just no one has forced an airline to make that argument.
Dec 30, 2014, 5:04 pm
#153
Join Date: Jan 2012
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This all, of course, assumes that the hidden-city ticketing provisions of the contract are even enforceable. If I book a ticket XXX-YYY-ZZZ-YYY-XXX, and I decide for whatever reason not to get on the plane for the YYY-XXX flight, can the airline really force me to pay a higher airfare for that decision?
Can you legally contract someone to sit in a metal tube in the air for some period of time without any consideration?
I think you'd have a hard time arguing in court that a passenger owes an airline anything for not getting on a plane and not going anywhere... it's just no one has forced an airline to make that argument.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Dec 30, 2014 at 5:06 pm Reason: unneeded snark removed
Dec 30, 2014, 5:27 pm
#154
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I just can't imagine anyone saying, in court, with a straight face:
"Your honor, the defendant refused to take a portion of an itinerary they paid us for. As such, according to the contract we wrote that he never saw containing a requirement your average person doesn't understand, we are due an additional fare of an amount we computed after the fact using a method entirely of our choosing."
"Your honor, the defendant refused to take a portion of an itinerary they paid us for. As such, according to the contract we wrote that he never saw containing a requirement your average person doesn't understand, we are due an additional fare of an amount we computed after the fact using a method entirely of our choosing."
Dec 30, 2014, 5:27 pm
#155
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: ORD
Posts: 870
I just contributed to the Crowdfunding for the owner of Skiplagged's defense against United's greedy and ridiculous lawsuit.
I used my United Mileage Plus Chase Visa so I'll get miles for the contribution!
https://www.gofundme.com/skiplagged/
kd_LAX
Mileage Plus 1K
Million Miler
I used my United Mileage Plus Chase Visa so I'll get miles for the contribution!
https://www.gofundme.com/skiplagged/
kd_LAX
Mileage Plus 1K
Million Miler
Dec 30, 2014, 5:50 pm
#156
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And in addition to the search being conducted before the contract exists, SkipLagged isn't providing any compensation to the passenger to break the contract, they're just providing the passenger with the information they need to book a ticket that allows the passenger to violate the contract to their advantage.
This all, of course, assumes that the hidden-city ticketing provisions of the contract are even enforceable. If I book a ticket XXX-YYY-ZZZ-YYY-XXX, and I decide for whatever reason not to get on the plane for the YYY-XXX flight, can the airline really force me to pay a higher airfare for that decision?
Can you legally contract someone to sit in a metal tube in the air for some period of time without any consideration?
I think you'd have a hard time arguing in court that a passenger owes an airline anything for not getting on a plane and not going anywhere... it's just no one has forced an airline to make that argument.
This all, of course, assumes that the hidden-city ticketing provisions of the contract are even enforceable. If I book a ticket XXX-YYY-ZZZ-YYY-XXX, and I decide for whatever reason not to get on the plane for the YYY-XXX flight, can the airline really force me to pay a higher airfare for that decision?
Can you legally contract someone to sit in a metal tube in the air for some period of time without any consideration?
I think you'd have a hard time arguing in court that a passenger owes an airline anything for not getting on a plane and not going anywhere... it's just no one has forced an airline to make that argument.
Dec 30, 2014, 5:55 pm
#157
Join Date: Nov 2014
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I think you may have missed my point... Skiplagged's alleged activity occurred BEFORE the consumer agreed to (or was even presented with) any contract.
If I run a mapping service, and I inform you that if you drive 60 mph you can make it to your destination in 1 hour, or if you drive 120 mph you can make it there in 30 minutes -- and you subsequently drive 120 mph and cause an accident, am I liable for your behavior because I did the math for you?
Or, maybe more applicable, if I point out to you in advance that signing a contract with Company X, and then breaking that contract later on, would be 20% more profitable to you than honoring your contract, am I liable for informing you of that fact?
Legally, the answer is actually "maybe". But it's a VERY different argument than if you're already in a contract, and I come along and say "I'll give you $100 to break your contract with Company X." It's also insanely difficult to prove pre-contract interference with liability attached, even when you have piles of examples where such activity may have occurred.
Based on how, when and for what stated reasons this lawsuit was filed, it's really difficult to believe that this is anything other than an ill-advised (from a PR standpoint) attempt to crush an un-incorporated startup on un-tested legal grounds.
If I run a mapping service, and I inform you that if you drive 60 mph you can make it to your destination in 1 hour, or if you drive 120 mph you can make it there in 30 minutes -- and you subsequently drive 120 mph and cause an accident, am I liable for your behavior because I did the math for you?
Or, maybe more applicable, if I point out to you in advance that signing a contract with Company X, and then breaking that contract later on, would be 20% more profitable to you than honoring your contract, am I liable for informing you of that fact?
Legally, the answer is actually "maybe". But it's a VERY different argument than if you're already in a contract, and I come along and say "I'll give you $100 to break your contract with Company X." It's also insanely difficult to prove pre-contract interference with liability attached, even when you have piles of examples where such activity may have occurred.
Based on how, when and for what stated reasons this lawsuit was filed, it's really difficult to believe that this is anything other than an ill-advised (from a PR standpoint) attempt to crush an un-incorporated startup on un-tested legal grounds.
Happy New Year Flyers!
Dec 30, 2014, 6:18 pm
#158
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And, as someone who has also received a C&D letter from UA and had some conversations with their in-house legal counsel, I'm not at all surprised that the company chose to move forward on this.
Dec 30, 2014, 6:41 pm
#159
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And in addition to the search being conducted before the contract exists, SkipLagged isn't providing any compensation to the passenger to break the contract, they're just providing the passenger with the information they need to book a ticket that allows the passenger to violate the contract to their advantage.
This all, of course, assumes that the hidden-city ticketing provisions of the contract are even enforceable. If I book a ticket XXX-YYY-ZZZ-YYY-XXX, and I decide for whatever reason not to get on the plane for the YYY-XXX flight, can the airline really force me to pay a higher airfare for that decision?
If they think you are doing it regularly, or if they are just in a bad mood, they can cancel your FF membership and strip you off all your accumulated miles or points.
Come on, guys. This is not rocket science. There are rules. Quit trying to figure out a way to get around the rules. Play the game straight and it will almost always turn out better for everyone in the long run.
Dec 30, 2014, 6:53 pm
#160
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That's called "throw-away" ticketing. It's harder to detect, particularly if you don't request a refund on the unused return ticket. Rumor has it that such is seldom pursued unless repeatedly abused, since the throw-away ticket is usually a cheap restricted (non-changeable, non-refundable) one, and non-use of the return on the scheduled date could easily be explained by a change in circumstances that caused a change in plans.
Edited to add: The situation in Post #109 is called "nested ticketing". That's useful if you fly from home (AAA) to a work location (BBB) and return to AAA for weekends, then back to BBB the next Monday. The airlines would like you to pay businessman price for the Monday out, Friday back ticket but what you're doing is to use the first AAA - BBB flight as a positioning flight, then buy cheap weekend round-trip tickets back to AAA, and use the final BBB-AAA ticket when your work at BBB is done.
The poster's problem arose because he used the same carrier for the nested round trips as for the positioning round trip; it can be avoided by using different carriers for the positioning AAA-BBB-AAA trip and the nested weekend BBB-AAA-BBB trips.
Edited to add: The situation in Post #109 is called "nested ticketing". That's useful if you fly from home (AAA) to a work location (BBB) and return to AAA for weekends, then back to BBB the next Monday. The airlines would like you to pay businessman price for the Monday out, Friday back ticket but what you're doing is to use the first AAA - BBB flight as a positioning flight, then buy cheap weekend round-trip tickets back to AAA, and use the final BBB-AAA ticket when your work at BBB is done.
The poster's problem arose because he used the same carrier for the nested round trips as for the positioning round trip; it can be avoided by using different carriers for the positioning AAA-BBB-AAA trip and the nested weekend BBB-AAA-BBB trips.
Dec 30, 2014, 7:05 pm
#161
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It's not one sided. You agree to certain things. The airline agrees to certain things.
Come on, guys. This is not rocket science. There are rules. Quit trying to figure out a way to get around the rules. Play the game straight and it will almost always turn out better for everyone in the long run.
Whose rules? Same people who promise you something and take it away?
Why don't you ask UA to play the game straight? They don't hold up to their end of the bargain on a daily basis. FT is full of threads that outlines horror stories of UA not keeping their end of the bargain.
Dec 30, 2014, 7:10 pm
#162
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I just can't imagine anyone saying, in court, with a straight face:
"Your honor, the defendant refused to take a portion of an itinerary they paid us for. As such, according to the contract we wrote that he never saw containing a requirement your average person doesn't understand, we are due an additional fare of an amount we computed after the fact using a method entirely of our choosing."
"Your honor, the defendant refused to take a portion of an itinerary they paid us for. As such, according to the contract we wrote that he never saw containing a requirement your average person doesn't understand, we are due an additional fare of an amount we computed after the fact using a method entirely of our choosing."
Dec 30, 2014, 7:23 pm
#163
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if UA really cared about their reputation they would've just done a C&D letter and hope the kid vanishes on his own. The argument of load balancing is a poor one, but encouraging someone to violate CoC is a strong one.
UA has a strong case here. If HCT doesn't hold up in court, travel agents would've challenged all those debit memos ages ago.
UA has a strong case here. If HCT doesn't hold up in court, travel agents would've challenged all those debit memos ages ago.
HCT is a contract violation - but one that exists between passenger and airline, or booking agent and airline - not a website providing free information and the airline where those tickets may or may not end up being booked.
UA is just looking incredibly foolish and petty here and now the real issue with Orbitz is being overlooked.
Dec 30, 2014, 7:32 pm
#164
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,748
1. UA might very well win in courts if it ever gets to that stage but they most certainly would lose in the court of public opinion on this case. The longer it goes, the worse the PR issue for UA.
2. Cases like this aren't brought about because UA fears this one small site but because of fears that this might become a widespread practice in the future world of Apps. They just want to make an example of this company to discourage others.
3. Seems like there are too many corporate lawyers and not enough consumer advocates on this forum which influences their opinion on legal matters (not to be confused with explanation of the law).
4. Actions like this are futile for the long term because technology evolution is forcing more transparency and access and these legacy industries can fight it only for a short period when their business practice itself seems flawed to an average consumer of their product (not to be confused with making sense to all the people who are vested in the business model of airlines).
2. Cases like this aren't brought about because UA fears this one small site but because of fears that this might become a widespread practice in the future world of Apps. They just want to make an example of this company to discourage others.
3. Seems like there are too many corporate lawyers and not enough consumer advocates on this forum which influences their opinion on legal matters (not to be confused with explanation of the law).
4. Actions like this are futile for the long term because technology evolution is forcing more transparency and access and these legacy industries can fight it only for a short period when their business practice itself seems flawed to an average consumer of their product (not to be confused with making sense to all the people who are vested in the business model of airlines).
Dec 30, 2014, 7:42 pm
#165
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 97
They are conspiring with their customers to violate a contract. That's civil fraud. Conspiracy to commit civil fraud is a criminal act. Skiplagged doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Yes.
It's not one sided. You agree to certain things. The airline agrees to certain things.
And if they do, they will collect.
If they think you are doing it regularly, or if they are just in a bad mood, they can cancel your FF membership and strip you off all your accumulated miles or points.
Come on, guys. This is not rocket science. There are rules. Quit trying to figure out a way to get around the rules. Play the game straight and it will almost always turn out better for everyone in the long run.
Yes.
It's not one sided. You agree to certain things. The airline agrees to certain things.
And if they do, they will collect.
If they think you are doing it regularly, or if they are just in a bad mood, they can cancel your FF membership and strip you off all your accumulated miles or points.
Come on, guys. This is not rocket science. There are rules. Quit trying to figure out a way to get around the rules. Play the game straight and it will almost always turn out better for everyone in the long run.
I don't use hidden city but I did in the past and already booked in the future some RT with the intention of only flying one way, and I couldn't care less what the airline thinks of it
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Dec 30, 2014 at 8:07 pm Reason: Discuss the issues, not each other