"What you're doing is not right."
Dec 6, 2013, 7:15 am
#76
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,877
The bottom line is that the OP called after 24 hours cutoff and tried to game his way out of paying a fee.
Given that UA monitors this board, it would not surprise me in the least if they occasionally correlate FT members, who post these types of shenanigans, with the FT members' actual name and MP account (not that difficult).
Some people crave attention to such an extent that they will do anything to receive it: when they get away with something, they feel it necessary to post it on the Internet and then complain about some aspect of the scenario.
In OP's case, he/she was trying to game the system, encountered an irritated CSR who knew what "was up"; and, in the end, got what he/she wanted.
Why even post it on the Internet?
Given that UA monitors this board, it would not surprise me in the least if they occasionally correlate FT members, who post these types of shenanigans, with the FT members' actual name and MP account (not that difficult).
Some people crave attention to such an extent that they will do anything to receive it: when they get away with something, they feel it necessary to post it on the Internet and then complain about some aspect of the scenario.
In OP's case, he/she was trying to game the system, encountered an irritated CSR who knew what "was up"; and, in the end, got what he/she wanted.
Why even post it on the Internet?
Dec 6, 2013, 7:30 am
#77
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Midwest
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"UA and their FF affinity credit card companies constantly bombard us with ways to get miles, get status, fly the world in First class for free, on and on and on. They want us to "do it for miles". They beg us to do so. They give us a rich, romantic picture of the FF nirvana. So how can they be surprised if we "do it for miles"
The perfect response if an agent tells you mileage runs are not right. How can buying a ticket they sell be wrong, no matter what the reason? If they sell it they shouldn't complain that you bought it.
By the way, I have never done a mileage run in my life, so I'm not saying this out of self interest.
Dec 6, 2013, 7:48 am
#78
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Dec 6, 2013, 7:56 am
#79
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Dec 6, 2013, 7:56 am
#80
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Independent! But mostly BKK, BCN, SFO, PDX, SEA...
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If I'm breaking a rule, or doing something I shouldn't be doing, as a CSR, just tell me that you can't help me and be done with it. I don't wanna hear your value judgments on my flying habits. I'm giving you money, either tell me what I'm doing can't be done or shut the **** up and take it.
All the guy had to say was, "We cannot make that change without charging you a change fee." Period. End of story. But "cheating" United? How small-ball does that sound? Maybe if they hadn't jumped over barrels full of dollars to chase pennies with TODs and fees, they wouldn't be worried about some guy booking low-fare mileage runs.
In OP's case, he/she was trying to game the system, encountered an irritated CSR who knew what "was up"; and, in the end, got what he/she wanted.
Dec 6, 2013, 8:03 am
#81
Join Date: Oct 2008
Programs: DL Plat, HH Diamond, Hyatt Plat
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You're right, though. I could probably have made a stronger argument, but I was getting wordy already. As another example, when a web award ticket is pricing contrary to the award schedule and the agent says the web is right, our choices are to escalate or to HUACA.
Sometimes time can be short, but I agree 100%! ^
Dec 6, 2013, 8:44 am
#82
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: ORD
Programs: United Plat 2MM, Hilton Gold
Posts: 2,727
The OP was wrong for trying to game the system outside the 24hr window. It's a very simple rule, and using HUACA to get around it is arguably offensive.
The CSR was wrong for being critical of his MR. If UA doesn't want mileage runners, they should stop advertising the benefits of acquiring miles.
The CSR was wrong for being critical of his MR. If UA doesn't want mileage runners, they should stop advertising the benefits of acquiring miles.
I was questioned exactly once on flying patterns - by a new CSR. I was flying out to SFO early on a Friday afternoon, returning on the redeye. He called his supervisor over and asked me why I was making a same-day trip (I was attending a housewarming party for a friend) and the supervisor said to the CSR that it's none of their business.
Which is exactly right.
Dec 6, 2013, 9:24 am
#83
Original Poster
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Well, the "lecture" was prompted when the customer asked the supe for it "This time, I sensed underlying hostility, and I called the supervisor out on it. I asked him why the hostility, and whether it was affecting his willingness to help" My theory is if you don't want a question answered honestly, don't ask the question. Had this been a purely business call by the customer, the supe would have never "lectureed" him on it, as it were, the customer had numerous times asked multiple people, hung up on them all for not breaking the rules, when he ran across a supe who seemed to be irritated by such a waste of resources, the customer prompted the reply by asking the outisde of the transaction related question.
SHould the supe have volunteered the info? No, should the customer have repeatedly hung up on agents who were doing what they were supposed to do, and then escalate to a supervisor to break the rules, then ask the question as to why the supe seems irritated? No, most likely that shouldn't have been done to promt it either.
The whole "mileage run is bad" is a red herring here. The fact that the customer kept hangin up on agents doing their job, then when horizontal shifts from agent to agent didn't work, he then tried for vertical shifts to get rules to be broken on his behalf...well, few businesses have surplus resources dedicated to correctly answering the same question correctly to the same individual across multiple agents and multiple levels, hoping he can convince someoene into breaking the rules in his /against the companies financial interests.
The mileage run is fine, but one gets what one paid for. You buy restricitve tickets to maximize one's return on minimal investment in self interest. You want to change one where the clearly stated rules require a fee, one should expect to pay that price, and not initiate a 1 man campaign of monopolizing the res lines until one can convince someone to break the clearly stated and understood rules for your gain and the airlines loss. One must live with the consequences of one's actions.
The whole "mileage run is bad" is a red herring here. The fact that the customer kept hangin up on agents doing their job, then when horizontal shifts from agent to agent didn't work, he then tried for vertical shifts to get rules to be broken on his behalf...well, few businesses have surplus resources dedicated to correctly answering the same question correctly to the same individual across multiple agents and multiple levels, hoping he can convince someoene into breaking the rules in his /against the companies financial interests.
The mileage run is fine, but one gets what one paid for. You buy restricitve tickets to maximize one's return on minimal investment in self interest. You want to change one where the clearly stated rules require a fee, one should expect to pay that price, and not initiate a 1 man campaign of monopolizing the res lines until one can convince someone to break the clearly stated and understood rules for your gain and the airlines loss. One must live with the consequences of one's actions.
My final word on this: I posted this because I found the value judgment on why I am flying to be weird; I posted all the info in a spirit of transparency (no pun intended), and did not leave out anything. I'm a little dismayed at how far some posters took things in assuming behavior and even suggesting criminal actions. I realize I was asking for an exception (and I do not ask for exceptions often), I asked a few times to be sure nothing could be done (like I said, < 15 on the phone), and I was polite to each agent. Lastly, I must assume that those who are focusing on the exception part must never have asked for one... in that case, by all means, keep casting stones.
Last edited by transparent; Dec 6, 2013 at 9:41 am
Dec 6, 2013, 9:28 am
#84
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: ORD
Programs: AAdvantage
Posts: 106
"What you're doing is not right."
Some Northwest (pre-Delta purchase) supervisor got hostile because he/she felt Rabbi Ginsberg complained too much and did not want to hear his complaints again.
The simple way to end the complains would have been to ban Rabbi Ginsberg from further complaints. But that hostile supervisor also decided to "What you're doing is not right" and cancel the Rabbi's frequent flyer account.
Customer service reps, and especially supervisors, need to understand that their job description does not include making editorial comments about customers' behaviors. CSR's: Handle the transaction and keep your value judgments to yourself.
It sounds like after HUCA the OP got what he wanted, but OP should not have been subjected to CSR hostility. Customers should get a "press 8 at any time during this recorded call to tag it for management review" option, maybe that would help.
Dec 6, 2013, 9:53 am
#85
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,189
1. Rude behavior is never justified. By customers or by employees. Ever.
2. UA appears to have upped its game and is better documenting the phone bankers (HUCA). Thus, the supervisor could see that this wasn't a simple escalation.
3. While MR's are perfectly within the COC, they are not the business any carrier wants to actively encourage.
So, for reasons 2 & 3, the answer is "no" as a matter of the supervisor's discretion.
2. UA appears to have upped its game and is better documenting the phone bankers (HUCA). Thus, the supervisor could see that this wasn't a simple escalation.
3. While MR's are perfectly within the COC, they are not the business any carrier wants to actively encourage.
So, for reasons 2 & 3, the answer is "no" as a matter of the supervisor's discretion.
Dec 6, 2013, 9:57 am
#86
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Supervisor hostility is why Delta is now spending megabucks on lawyers defending itself in the Supreme Court.
Some Northwest (pre-Delta purchase) supervisor got hostile because he/she felt Rabbi Ginsberg complained too much and did not want to hear his complaints again.
The simple way to end the complains would have been to ban Rabbi Ginsberg from further complaints. But that hostile supervisor also decided to "What you're doing is not right" and cancel the Rabbi's frequent flyer account.
Some Northwest (pre-Delta purchase) supervisor got hostile because he/she felt Rabbi Ginsberg complained too much and did not want to hear his complaints again.
The simple way to end the complains would have been to ban Rabbi Ginsberg from further complaints. But that hostile supervisor also decided to "What you're doing is not right" and cancel the Rabbi's frequent flyer account.
Dec 6, 2013, 10:02 am
#87
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Sure.
And in this case the customer bought the fare and then decided later they didn't like the terms of the fare so they're trying to change it. By calling multiple times and not accepting responsibility for the decision they made to buy that fare. And yet still UA is the "bad guy" because the passenger in this case "sensed underlying hostility, and called the supervisor out on it" which basically means that we have no idea what the passenger was saying on the phone to the CSR but they didn't like what the CSR said back and then the passenger ratcheted up the stress level in the discussion.
The OP has admitted that they do this from time to time, though they also try to pretend that it is OK because they "don't make a habit out of it." Though we also have no idea how often they actually do it. And the CSR, seeing a scenario where the customer isn't actually providing value to the company, bothered to tell the passenger that.
Sometimes the truth hurts. If you cannot handle being told "no" then stop asking for favors from people who don't owe them to you.
I get that my view might not be popular here, because the company is always evil and we should have the rules bent whenever we want seems like the general view of the forum. But, quite frankly, that's a stupid view and one which is not good for the customer nor the company.
And in this case the customer bought the fare and then decided later they didn't like the terms of the fare so they're trying to change it. By calling multiple times and not accepting responsibility for the decision they made to buy that fare. And yet still UA is the "bad guy" because the passenger in this case "sensed underlying hostility, and called the supervisor out on it" which basically means that we have no idea what the passenger was saying on the phone to the CSR but they didn't like what the CSR said back and then the passenger ratcheted up the stress level in the discussion.
The OP has admitted that they do this from time to time, though they also try to pretend that it is OK because they "don't make a habit out of it." Though we also have no idea how often they actually do it. And the CSR, seeing a scenario where the customer isn't actually providing value to the company, bothered to tell the passenger that.
Sometimes the truth hurts. If you cannot handle being told "no" then stop asking for favors from people who don't owe them to you.
I get that my view might not be popular here, because the company is always evil and we should have the rules bent whenever we want seems like the general view of the forum. But, quite frankly, that's a stupid view and one which is not good for the customer nor the company.
I don't think UA owed him anything, but you never know what you can get if you don't ask.
That said, there's no reason for hostility on the supervisor's part. He may not agree with what the OP was doing, but there are ways to call a customer out without being a jerk about it. If I sensed hostility from a CSR, I'd call them on it too.
I haven't asked for anything unusual from them. When I have an issue with them, they take care of it the first time. If I send an email into DM CS (even the general email) and ask for a call as the 800 # CS's couldn't resolve the issue, I get a person calling me back within 24 hours on business days. I've even had calls back within a few hours of requesting them.
Whenever I've been given bad information, they honored what I was told.
When I call an elite line (even when I was a silver), I got a US-based agent answering me usually within 15 seconds. "Busy" times were under 5 minutes.
Yes, US has an arguably inferior product compared to UA. They don't have IFE or E+. Their FFP is a little on the stingy side. Their food isn't served as often as UA's. But I've never felt like crap traveling their airline, and how they've treated me since I've come over is a large part of why I've stayed. US values what I've contributed, and when they noticed my travel tapered off a bit (due to budget cuts at work), they sent me some encouragement to get me to fly more. It worked.
Contrast this to UA, when I've had to fly them for Asia. They screw up my ticket and can't fix it after 3 calls. I had to go into an airport to get it fixed. Every issue has to have the help desk called. The squabbling between PMUA/PMCO employees. I don't even feel valued on a paid C fare. Imagine what a kettle on an L fare feels.
Plus, US's version of SHARES actually works - well at least better than UA's.
After 24 hours, you're on UA's good graces in asking for a favor.
BIG difference from what you're saying.
You didn't just ask for assistance. You asked for assistance multiple times and was denied each time. And every time this happened, the agent had likely added some comments in your PNR. So when you say your tone was "nice," it actually comes across as condescending because essentially you are saying to the next agent (who was probably reading the comments while you were talking) "the previous agent wasn't helpful, but maybe you are nice enough to do me a favor." You were essentially belittling their colleagues.
I find it odd that people are bashing the HUCA practice when I've seen some of the people complaining about it advise it in the past.
Belittling their colleagues? Please.
I guess we're automatically supposed to accept No as an answer - even in times when we know we're right and something CAN be done per the rules and an agent is just refusing to be helpful.
And UA wonders why it's losing customers.
So, here's our summary so far.
The OP was wrong for trying to game the system outside the 24hr window. It's a very simple rule, and using HUACA to get around it is arguably offensive.
The CSR was wrong for being critical of his MR. If UA doesn't want mileage runners, they should stop advertising the benefits of acquiring miles.
The OP was wrong for trying to game the system outside the 24hr window. It's a very simple rule, and using HUACA to get around it is arguably offensive.
The CSR was wrong for being critical of his MR. If UA doesn't want mileage runners, they should stop advertising the benefits of acquiring miles.
Last edited by iluv2fly; Dec 6, 2013 at 3:27 pm Reason: merge
Dec 6, 2013, 10:23 am
#88
Join Date: Oct 2011
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I can't judge what happened on the call. But assuming the words quotes are reasonably close, is anyone else curious or concerned about the general attitude towards elites or flyers? This is like right around 3/3 when I was told by a very sad/upset pmUA phone agent that pmCO managers had been deployed to the call centers and were instructing staff to "train the customers" and elites to expect less (a la pmCO, I assume). Any UA staff on this thread have any info on what agents are being told about mileage runs, elites, etc?
Dec 6, 2013, 12:02 pm
#89
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And the present UA policy is more generous than the min requirement of the DOT requirement.
Dec 6, 2013, 12:09 pm
#90
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