Saver fare from NYC to connect to LAX-OGG
Mar 19, 2013, 6:38 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Dec 2012
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Saver fare from NYC to connect to LAX-OGG
Hello,
I'm trying to book award travel to OGG. Availability isn't the issue - plenty of NYC-LAX and LAX-OGG options. I want to book the morning flight from LAX-OGG, UA565. Two phone reps (and yes I waited until > 8AM EST to get a sUA call center) have told me this requires an overnight in LA and must therefore be a multi-seg trip requiring an extra 12,500 miles pp.
So its physically impossible to get on a morning flight from CA - HI as a saver award?!
I'm trying to book award travel to OGG. Availability isn't the issue - plenty of NYC-LAX and LAX-OGG options. I want to book the morning flight from LAX-OGG, UA565. Two phone reps (and yes I waited until > 8AM EST to get a sUA call center) have told me this requires an overnight in LA and must therefore be a multi-seg trip requiring an extra 12,500 miles pp.
So its physically impossible to get on a morning flight from CA - HI as a saver award?!
Mar 19, 2013, 6:59 am
#2
Join Date: Aug 2011
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The refusal to permit overnight >4 hour layovers on that route is obnoxious, and something that I ran into on my recent MR. (The fare rules permit a stopover, typically for $50-$100, but that doesn't help you.) The conditions under which UA permits an overnight first-flight >4 hour layover are a mystery.
I think, though I'm not sure, that a free stopover may be permitted on r/t award travel to Hawaii (unlike within the 48 or to Alaska). In that case, as long as you're booking the r/t, you should be fine. Others can confirm.
I think, though I'm not sure, that a free stopover may be permitted on r/t award travel to Hawaii (unlike within the 48 or to Alaska). In that case, as long as you're booking the r/t, you should be fine. Others can confirm.
Mar 19, 2013, 7:02 am
#3
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Any domestic connection over 4 hours is a stopover.
If you're only booking a one-way, there is no free stopover. If you're booking a RT, you can take one stopover for free.
If you're only booking a one-way, there is no free stopover. If you're booking a RT, you can take one stopover for free.
Mar 19, 2013, 7:07 am
#5
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In my experience this is legal but can be very hard to book. united.com will sometimes, but not always, show this kind of booking as available online, apparently depending on the current time of day?!!?
What I found when trying to book a similar connection (BOS-SFO arriving too late for any connection that night, SFO-LAX first available flight in the morning) was that:
It **should** be a legal connection on an award ticket for you to fly NYC-LAX // LAX-OGG even if you have >4 hours if it's the next available flight.
However, "should" and "an actual human will consent to book it" are very different worlds. When I tried to do something similar (BOS-SFO/overnight/SFO-LAX), before the magic time of day when united.com started showing this award as a valid routing, I had phone agents make up all kinds of excuses why it wasn't a legal connection.
What I found when trying to book a similar connection (BOS-SFO arriving too late for any connection that night, SFO-LAX first available flight in the morning) was that:
- A week in advance, multiple phone agents insisted that this was not a legal connection, even though united.com showed that kind of routing available as an award booking for (say) that very night.
- On the day of travel, **after all other available flights BOS-SFO had departed**, united.com finally consented to show BOS-SFO/overnight/SFO-LAX as an available award for booking as a one-way trip BOS-LAX at the one-way Saver price.
- When I called to book it (in transit, flaky Internet connection), a phone agent saw the award, built it, then "did me a favor" without my asking and changed the connection in the morning to a later flight on a 777.
- That was pretty thoughtful since I was booking a saver F award and this meant 777 C instead of domestic F… but then the award never ticketed, and I showed up at the airport an hour later for the flight and was told "you have no ticket", and when I called a phone agent to ask them to forcibly ticket it, I discovered after travel that I had been charged 50,000 miles instead of the quoted 25,000. A PM to UA Insider led to a promise that they'd investigate & fix it, but I never heard back afterwards.
It **should** be a legal connection on an award ticket for you to fly NYC-LAX // LAX-OGG even if you have >4 hours if it's the next available flight.
However, "should" and "an actual human will consent to book it" are very different worlds. When I tried to do something similar (BOS-SFO/overnight/SFO-LAX), before the magic time of day when united.com started showing this award as a valid routing, I had phone agents make up all kinds of excuses why it wasn't a legal connection.
Mar 19, 2013, 7:09 am
#7
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Unless I'm out of my mind, I've seen next-available-flight-in-the-morning legal layovers without a stopover a million times. I thought that it was axiomatic that, according to each airline's whim, many first-available-flight itins were designated as legal layovers despite being >4 hours.
Mar 19, 2013, 7:15 am
#8
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Unless I'm out of my mind, I've seen next-available-flight-in-the-morning legal layovers without a stopover a million times. I thought that it was axiomatic that, according to each airline's whim, many first-available-flight itins were designated as legal layovers despite being >4 hours.
Mar 19, 2013, 7:18 am
#9
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See, e.g., exerda's comment here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/unite...r-allowed.html
Mar 19, 2013, 7:18 am
#10
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Unless I'm out of my mind, I've seen next-available-flight-in-the-morning legal layovers without a stopover a million times. I thought that it was axiomatic that, according to each airline's whim, many first-available-flight itins were designated as legal layovers despite being >4 hours.
The website is pricing the long connection in your favor. Which is why if you can make the website display it, you can have it, but an agent can't do it without overriding it.
Mar 19, 2013, 7:21 am
#11
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Everything I've read about layovers says that I'm right, viz., that a layover can legally be the next available flight, even if >4 hours, but that there are mysterious rules applied by the airlines about when this is permitted. Maybe everyone else is wrong about this, but I'm just relaying what almost every source says on the topic.
Mar 19, 2013, 8:25 am
#12
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Everything I've read about layovers says that I'm right, viz., that a layover can legally be the next available flight, even if >4 hours, but that there are mysterious rules applied by the airlines about when this is permitted. Maybe everyone else is wrong about this, but I'm just relaying what almost every source says on the topic.
Mar 19, 2013, 8:33 am
#13
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Everything I've read about layovers says that I'm right, viz., that a layover can legally be the next available flight, even if >4 hours, but that there are mysterious rules applied by the airlines about when this is permitted. Maybe everyone else is wrong about this, but I'm just relaying what almost every source says on the topic.
Connection means a stop at an intermediate point on the route to be traveled where a change of planes is made and which
does not fall within the definition of a stopover.
…
Stopover means a deliberate interruption of travel by the Passenger, agreed to in advance by the carrier, at a point between the place of departure and the place of destination. For International flights a Stopover will also be deemed to occur at an intermediate point from which the Passenger is not scheduled to depart on the date of arrival, but if there is no connecting departure scheduled on the date of arrival, departure on the next day within 24 hours of arrival shall not constitute a Stopover. If a portion of the routing is traveled by surface transportation, one Stopover shall be deemed to have been taken for such portion. For Domestic flights, a Stopover will also occur when a Passenger arrives at a point and fails to depart from such point on:
1) The first flight on which space is available; or
2) The flight that will provide for the Passenger’s earliest arrival at intermediate or junction transfer point(s) or destination point, via the carrier and class of service as shown on the Passenger’s Ticket; provided, however, that in no event will a Stopover occur when the Passenger departs from the intermediate/junction point on a flight shown in the carrier’s official general schedule as departing within four hours after arrival at such point.
does not fall within the definition of a stopover.
…
Stopover means a deliberate interruption of travel by the Passenger, agreed to in advance by the carrier, at a point between the place of departure and the place of destination. For International flights a Stopover will also be deemed to occur at an intermediate point from which the Passenger is not scheduled to depart on the date of arrival, but if there is no connecting departure scheduled on the date of arrival, departure on the next day within 24 hours of arrival shall not constitute a Stopover. If a portion of the routing is traveled by surface transportation, one Stopover shall be deemed to have been taken for such portion. For Domestic flights, a Stopover will also occur when a Passenger arrives at a point and fails to depart from such point on:
1) The first flight on which space is available; or
2) The flight that will provide for the Passenger’s earliest arrival at intermediate or junction transfer point(s) or destination point, via the carrier and class of service as shown on the Passenger’s Ticket; provided, however, that in no event will a Stopover occur when the Passenger departs from the intermediate/junction point on a flight shown in the carrier’s official general schedule as departing within four hours after arrival at such point.
Interestingly, the number "Four hours" is a bit magical elsewhere in the CoC:
5) Baggage will not be checked:
a) To a point that is not on the Passenger’s Routing;
b) Beyond the Passenger’s next point of Stopover or, if there is no Stopover, beyond the final Destination of the Ticket;
c) Beyond a point at which the Passenger wants to reclaim the Baggage or any portion thereof;
d) Beyond a point to which all applicable charges have been paid;
e) Beyond a point at which the Passenger is to Transfer to a connecting flight, if that flight is scheduled to depart from an airport different from the one at which the Passenger is scheduled to arrive; or
f) To an intermediate point unless the intermediate point to which the Baggage is to be checked is a permissible Stopover point at the fare paid (except if the Passenger is making a connection to the first available UA flight departing from such intermediate point and the connection exceeds four hours, the Passenger may reclaim his/her Baggage at such intermediate connecting point).
a) To a point that is not on the Passenger’s Routing;
b) Beyond the Passenger’s next point of Stopover or, if there is no Stopover, beyond the final Destination of the Ticket;
c) Beyond a point at which the Passenger wants to reclaim the Baggage or any portion thereof;
d) Beyond a point to which all applicable charges have been paid;
e) Beyond a point at which the Passenger is to Transfer to a connecting flight, if that flight is scheduled to depart from an airport different from the one at which the Passenger is scheduled to arrive; or
f) To an intermediate point unless the intermediate point to which the Baggage is to be checked is a permissible Stopover point at the fare paid (except if the Passenger is making a connection to the first available UA flight departing from such intermediate point and the connection exceeds four hours, the Passenger may reclaim his/her Baggage at such intermediate connecting point).
Last edited by mherdeg; Mar 19, 2013 at 8:39 am
Mar 19, 2013, 9:01 am
#14
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OP - It's not clear from your post, but are you seeking to book the last JFK-LAX of the night, followed by the first LAX-OGG or is your JFK-LAX earlier than the last flight? Should not make a difference so long as you arrive at LAX after the last LAX-OGG has departed, but it appears to do so.
Mar 19, 2013, 10:25 am
#15
Join Date: Aug 2011
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In case anyone is curious about primary-source data here (vs. what agents / united.com will / won't do), the Contract of Carriage says
. . .
It is hard to imagine that if you fly JFK-LAX/overnight/LAX-OGG and take (1) the first flight on which space is available, which is additionally (2) the flight that will get you to your destination earliest, that you have triggered a CoC-defined stopover.
. . .
It is hard to imagine that if you fly JFK-LAX/overnight/LAX-OGG and take (1) the first flight on which space is available, which is additionally (2) the flight that will get you to your destination earliest, that you have triggered a CoC-defined stopover.
I may be making a lot more long "layovers" in the future!
Do we think that "the first flight on which space is available" is the first flight with Y space, or with appropriate fare bucket space? (Okay, maybe that's getting a bit greedy.)