DaviddesJ

OK, I don't even understand your point. Explain it and I will learn something, maybe. You said yourself, random boarding makes better use of the aisle space than boarding front-to-back. So how could boarding the elite passengers front-to-back be faster than allowing the elite passengers to mix together randomly while boarding, so that the ones at the back are finding their seats at the same time as the ones at the front?

mgcsinc

Randomly boarding an entire plane is faster. I know of no research that says that randomly boarding rows 1-10 (elite boarding) is faster than randomly boarding rows 1-5 and then randomly boarding rows 6-10 (F boarding followed by elite boarding).

All of this is putting aside issues like boarding not through the front, or through two doors.

DaviddesJ

Seriously? How could it possibly be different? What if the plane only had 10 rows? Your argument is that the time to board a plane with 10 rows is different than the time to board a plane with 30 rows but only boarding the passengers in the first 10 rows?? Because ... those empty seats in the back change it somehow??

SFO 1K

All I'm saying is pre-merger UA boarded a narrow body including a 757 in 30 min and a wide body in 45 and with COs process it takes longer.

Whatever studies you care to reference can't change historical facts.

DaviddesJ

Wow. Look up "controlled and uncontrolled variables". There are a whole lot of other things that have changed in that time.

But, that said, in my experience boarding a 757 today takes less than 30 minutes. And if you're boarding a 757 from the second door then it's certainly obvious that boarding all of the F passengers before any Y passengers would make it take longer.

SFO 1K

Any variables you'd like to add that increase boarding times are an introduction of inefficiencies. UA had no trouble boarding planes with similar baggage policies before the changes.

I suggest removing the inefficiencies and getting back to fast boarding equals improved turn times and on time departures

Why am I about to board an ANA 788 with boarding in 30 minutes? Efficient boarding processes.

DaviddesJ

This is not entirely true (there are changes in passenger behavior that aren't a result of airline policies) but it's mostly true. But it's got absolutely nothing to do with the question about comparing two different orders of boarding. Yes, there are other changes that do affect boarding times. That doesn't change the fact that boarding all of the F passengers before any of the Y passengers will generally slow things down.

lloydah

But then speed isn't everything. Obviously you don't want to make boarding too draw out but the fact that boarding F pax first also gives them some status that they've probably paid for in some way - money/miles. As a Brit I see the US style of elites so complicated that it's almost unworkable, maybe because I'm more used to buying into a certain cabin and not having a certain status because of which credit card I have.
At some point just considering the speed of boarding turns the process into a factory conveyor belt with no one feeling either individual, respected or valued.

DaviddesJ

No, speed isn't everything. Speed isn't even the highest priority. Especially for passengers---boarding speed is really more of an airline issue than a passenger issue, it affects how fast they can turn their planes around.

I simply said that boarding all of the F passengers before any Y passengers would generally slow boarding down. This seems a pretty incontrovertible fact (no one has given any actual arguments against it) and yet it's met with a fusillade of argument. Can't we just start by agreeing on the facts and then we can all talk about those things that are a matter of opinion?

lloydah

Absolutely, I'm not disputing anything you said above as I'm not in possession of the facts. I'm just thinking that it matters more to have, what I presume are, the highest spenders on the flight feeling valued in a way herding them in doesn't. I feel the same way about assorted pax "stealing" your overhead room. If FCs patrolled this, if gate staff were consistent etc etc. I could go on and you know all this anyway, it's all part of the big picture of what would bring some "class" back to flying - and UA could sure do with some.

WineCountryUA

a couple of things
-- first, aircraft where economy passengers pass through F and aircraft where they don't are likely to yield different results (my guess).
-- Your supposition is no more of a fact than anyone else's statement unless you have hard data / demonstrated studies to support your supposition.

There have been a number of studies on boarding aircraft (unfortunately I don't have the time to search those out at the moment) but the results were somewhat unintuitive (IMO). Such as filling from the back froward was not the fastest and neither was random loading. So it is dangerous to assume any result that seems intuitive.

DaviddesJ

Of course, "class" is a highly divisive subject. I do want to be able to buy convenience and comfort, but I do not want the distinctions between people of different "classes" to be shoved in people's faces, for some people to be arbitrarily set above others. Slowing the whole boarding process down so that other people can all be reminded of how I'm above them is exactly the kind of thing that puts me off. But there are certainly other people who feel exactly the opposite.

A stellar example is what others have mentioned, boarding the 757 from the 2nd door. In this case, it's absolutely incontrovertible that boarding F cabin before Y cabin slows the process down, because the F passengers going forward wouldn't interfere with the Y passengers at all, unless they all board in a big clump first that backs up into the skybridge. So for me it would be very unpleasant to have the F passengers (including me) all board separately first, because it's an artificial symbol of one group being set above another but in a way that is counterproductive for the group as a whole. Of course, as I said, other people will feel differently and they are perfectly entitled to have their own preferences.

lloydah

My use of the word "Class" isn't used to denigrate anyone and not used to describe upper/middle/lower/working - whatever class you want- people. I was using it in the sense of class as you might describe a "classy joint" ? perhaps. On the other hand the tickets being sold are described by the company as "First Class" etc etc so there's no getting away from the fact that there is some distinction. The curtain between the cabins says it all.

DaviddesJ

Well, maybe there's no getting away from it entirely, but I try my best to get away from it as much as possible. It can certainly be more or less on different airlines and flights. I don't like the idea of a curtain between the cabins, either (which is something that doesn't seem to exist on most UA flights). The airlines do try to emphasize security concerns as a reason to prevent people from moving between cabins, which often seems somewhat forced but I appreciate them trying to make an excuse rather than being overtly classist. Even if people really know that their main motivation is to isolate their big spenders from the unwashed masses, it's nice for them to pretend otherwise.

lloydah

"unwashed masses" over here we call that "Ryanair".