What makes us think we are UA's "best" customers?
Sep 8, 2012, 4:09 pm
#31
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My theory is they are catering so much to the "kettles" is because a huge portion of their profit is coming from all the ancillary fees the "kettles" pay that elites are exempt from. If you are not a profitable customer you are not one of their "best" customers no matter what your elite level. Being elite costs the airline profit. You don't pay the ancillary fees which are a huge parts of their profits.
Sep 8, 2012, 4:10 pm
#32
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Op here,
Very interesting responses. My personal feeling....
While I am annoyed at UA's recent decisions, I don't feel tha UA owes me anything. And I don't think that UA has a responsibility to FT. We are not a governing board. We don't pay membership dues. And I think that UA must look at FT as that group of people who are always complaining and wanting something for nothing.
The most profitable customers are probably the ones who don't have enough time for FT.
The most loyal customers are probably the ones who don't try to take advantage of a mistake.
Where do we fit?
Very interesting responses. My personal feeling....
While I am annoyed at UA's recent decisions, I don't feel tha UA owes me anything. And I don't think that UA has a responsibility to FT. We are not a governing board. We don't pay membership dues. And I think that UA must look at FT as that group of people who are always complaining and wanting something for nothing.
The most profitable customers are probably the ones who don't have enough time for FT.
The most loyal customers are probably the ones who don't try to take advantage of a mistake.
Where do we fit?
Sep 8, 2012, 4:15 pm
#33
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Not to put salt on the wound, but do you know what happens to you if you make a mistake? Does UA treat you like you think we should treat UA and says - hey, you've made a mistake, we understand, let's refund you that non-refundable fare, or change your itin without a change fee. Last time I checked, the response is always - sorry, tough luck, gotta live with the choices you've made, mistake or not.
Sep 8, 2012, 4:24 pm
#35
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United thinks Kettles are its best customers.
10 kettles on K fares with fees are much more valuable than one elite buying 10 k fares without them, and who earns more miles (and knows how to use them), is less likely to pay for an upgrade, and knows how to maximize benefits out of the system more generally.
Kettles domestically, full fare internationally. That's the name of the game. And if you happen to be a domestic elite and you buy full Y, then you actually get treated quite well on the upgrade front.
Otherwise, you're at the IAH UA Club whining about it
10 kettles on K fares with fees are much more valuable than one elite buying 10 k fares without them, and who earns more miles (and knows how to use them), is less likely to pay for an upgrade, and knows how to maximize benefits out of the system more generally.
Kettles domestically, full fare internationally. That's the name of the game. And if you happen to be a domestic elite and you buy full Y, then you actually get treated quite well on the upgrade front.
Otherwise, you're at the IAH UA Club whining about it
Sep 8, 2012, 4:24 pm
#36
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Not to put salt on the wound, but do you know what happens to you if you make a mistake? Does UA treat you like you think we should treat UA and says - hey, you've made a mistake, we understand, let's refund you that non-refundable fare, or change your itin without a change fee. Last time I checked, the response is always - sorry, tough luck, gotta live with the choices you've made, mistake or not.
I guess if I had a best loyal customer who acted like many are here, I would rethink the entire program to weed out the spoilers.
Sep 8, 2012, 4:29 pm
#37
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One has to consider the basics of travel behavior to even come close to understanding "best." The first filter for best passenger has to be a passenger whose trips are generated without any regard for the characteristics of the airline. If I'm thinking about taking a trip but only if there is excess capacity requiring a discounted price threshold, that's not best. For me, for example, I always have a list of North American cities I want to visit for a long weekend IF the price is below a threshold of $/MQM and the equipment is not a 50-seater or smaller. That's not "best." The filter for best is "I have to go to Nashville 4 times a year regardless of price, and it's too far to drive."
The second filter for best has very little to do with you, and everything to do with those around you. Your trip needs have to match up with enough other people for the airline to care about it. This is why most airlines feature hubs, even airlines like Southwest which still do a lot of point-to-point service. If you are the only person who wants to fly from Milwaukee to Greenville, you're not the best customer. This is why AA flew RDU-LGW for years and years... because six days a week there were people who needed to fly that route and for whom the 777 was just a big shuttle bus.
If you're thinking about money, plane type, the 500-mile MQM minimum, you're not their best customer. If you're usually changing planes, you're not their best customer. That doesn't mean that you're not useful. I'm very useful to Delta because they'd rather not keep their plane at ORD all day waiting for the people from DTW doing business to be done, so I'm happy to leave at 9:30am and sit on the plane while it goes back to Detroit... as long as it's not a CR2/ER4. But I'm certainly not best.
To me, an airline's best customers are a professional sports team, or a NCAA D1 football team. As player salaries went up, it's not like 30 years ago where I saw the LA Lakers pickup up their luggage from carousel 12 at ORD T1. To need an entire plane, to know when you're going to need it usually 6 months in advance, that's "best." Look at Delta's charter-specific 319s for an example.
The second filter for best has very little to do with you, and everything to do with those around you. Your trip needs have to match up with enough other people for the airline to care about it. This is why most airlines feature hubs, even airlines like Southwest which still do a lot of point-to-point service. If you are the only person who wants to fly from Milwaukee to Greenville, you're not the best customer. This is why AA flew RDU-LGW for years and years... because six days a week there were people who needed to fly that route and for whom the 777 was just a big shuttle bus.
If you're thinking about money, plane type, the 500-mile MQM minimum, you're not their best customer. If you're usually changing planes, you're not their best customer. That doesn't mean that you're not useful. I'm very useful to Delta because they'd rather not keep their plane at ORD all day waiting for the people from DTW doing business to be done, so I'm happy to leave at 9:30am and sit on the plane while it goes back to Detroit... as long as it's not a CR2/ER4. But I'm certainly not best.
To me, an airline's best customers are a professional sports team, or a NCAA D1 football team. As player salaries went up, it's not like 30 years ago where I saw the LA Lakers pickup up their luggage from carousel 12 at ORD T1. To need an entire plane, to know when you're going to need it usually 6 months in advance, that's "best." Look at Delta's charter-specific 319s for an example.
Sep 8, 2012, 4:31 pm
#38
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People need to stop assuming that just because YOU took away your business from UA, someone else hasn't filled in that void. If UA can replace the tickets you are no longer purchasing with a customer, or customers who are, then you are not as valuable as you think you are. In fact, you do not have much value to them at all in reality. Once people begin to accept this, then the "entitled elite" mentality will start to fade. Hopefully.
Sep 8, 2012, 4:40 pm
#39
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One has to consider the basics of travel behavior to even come close to understanding "best." The first filter for best passenger has to be a passenger whose trips are generated without any regard for the characteristics of the airline. If I'm thinking about taking a trip but only if there is excess capacity requiring a discounted price threshold, that's not best. For me, for example, I always have a list of North American cities I want to visit for a long weekend IF the price is below a threshold of $/MQM and the equipment is not a 50-seater or smaller. That's not "best." The filter for best is "I have to go to Nashville 4 times a year regardless of price, and it's too far to drive."
The second filter for best has very little to do with you, and everything to do with those around you. Your trip needs have to match up with enough other people for the airline to care about it. This is why most airlines feature hubs, even airlines like Southwest which still do a lot of point-to-point service. If you are the only person who wants to fly from Milwaukee to Greenville, you're not the best customer. This is why AA flew RDU-LGW for years and years... because six days a week there were people who needed to fly that route and for whom the 777 was just a big shuttle bus.
If you're thinking about money, plane type, the 500-mile MQM minimum, you're not their best customer. If you're usually changing planes, you're not their best customer. That doesn't mean that you're not useful. I'm very useful to Delta because they'd rather not keep their plane at ORD all day waiting for the people from DTW doing business to be done, so I'm happy to leave at 9:30am and sit on the plane while it goes back to Detroit... as long as it's not a CR2/ER4. But I'm certainly not best.
To me, an airline's best customers are a professional sports team, or a NCAA D1 football team. As player salaries went up, it's not like 30 years ago where I saw the LA Lakers pickup up their luggage from carousel 12 at ORD T1. To need an entire plane, to know when you're going to need it usually 6 months in advance, that's "best." Look at Delta's charter-specific 319s for an example.
The second filter for best has very little to do with you, and everything to do with those around you. Your trip needs have to match up with enough other people for the airline to care about it. This is why most airlines feature hubs, even airlines like Southwest which still do a lot of point-to-point service. If you are the only person who wants to fly from Milwaukee to Greenville, you're not the best customer. This is why AA flew RDU-LGW for years and years... because six days a week there were people who needed to fly that route and for whom the 777 was just a big shuttle bus.
If you're thinking about money, plane type, the 500-mile MQM minimum, you're not their best customer. If you're usually changing planes, you're not their best customer. That doesn't mean that you're not useful. I'm very useful to Delta because they'd rather not keep their plane at ORD all day waiting for the people from DTW doing business to be done, so I'm happy to leave at 9:30am and sit on the plane while it goes back to Detroit... as long as it's not a CR2/ER4. But I'm certainly not best.
To me, an airline's best customers are a professional sports team, or a NCAA D1 football team. As player salaries went up, it's not like 30 years ago where I saw the LA Lakers pickup up their luggage from carousel 12 at ORD T1. To need an entire plane, to know when you're going to need it usually 6 months in advance, that's "best." Look at Delta's charter-specific 319s for an example.
Sep 8, 2012, 4:40 pm
#40
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My theory is they are catering so much to the "kettles" is because a huge portion of their profit is coming from all the ancillary fees the "kettles" pay that elites are exempt from. If you are not a profitable customer you are not one of their "best" customers no matter what your elite level. Being elite costs the airline profit. You don't pay the ancillary fees which are a huge parts of their profits.
The best customer is one who controls lots of passengers' travel behavior and is perfectly willing to treat those passengers like cattle and send them back and forth between particular city pairs to get work done.
Last edited by iluv2fly; Sep 8, 2012 at 6:45 pm Reason: merge
Sep 8, 2012, 4:47 pm
#41
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No, I think you missed the point. Look at the RDU-LGW example.
The best customer is one who controls lots of passengers' travel behavior and is perfectly willing to treat those passengers like cattle and send them back and forth between particular city pairs to get work done.
The best customer is one who controls lots of passengers' travel behavior and is perfectly willing to treat those passengers like cattle and send them back and forth between particular city pairs to get work done.
Sep 8, 2012, 4:48 pm
#42
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Sep 8, 2012, 4:51 pm
#43
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Actually, it should - because the published benefits are not based on spend or fare class, but rather on the mileage flown. If UA concluded that spend is more important, UA should make changes to MP and make it based on spend.
Sep 8, 2012, 5:01 pm
#44
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No, I think YOU missed the point. It's unreasonable to expect that customers will be buying UA without any regard for competition, be they Joe Schmoe, or a random FT poster, or Koby Bryant. And this is not something around what UA can or should build its business model. Quite honestly, if you have lots of money, why would you even fly UA? You will have your own private jet, or fly charters if you're poor.
The poor corporate sheepie whose travel manager tells them that they have to fly UA has the expectation of wanting to keep his/her job, so said sheepie dutifully flies UA even if it means having to spend 8-10 hours a week on a CR2.
How in any particular world can you actually be a better customer?
Sep 8, 2012, 5:15 pm
#45
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The UA vs Kayaker getting cheap fare argument is specious
??
I can spend, say, $300 to book on DL. Instead, I spend $500 to book on UA.
You can bet your sweet bippie that the Kettles aren't making the choice to UA in that situation. They'll book UA when it's $250.
Tell me again how my repeat business is not good for UA?
The level of apologetics for UA is amazing.
I can spend, say, $300 to book on DL. Instead, I spend $500 to book on UA.
You can bet your sweet bippie that the Kettles aren't making the choice to UA in that situation. They'll book UA when it's $250.
Tell me again how my repeat business is not good for UA?
The level of apologetics for UA is amazing.
Then I thought it through a bit more.
That $500 United seat has some chance of an upgrade coming with it. What have your upgrade rates been this year? And what honest value would you give a seat in F?
Let's say you are a high-flyin' 1K who gets upgrades 50% of the time. And we'll give a value for domestic F transcon at $1000.
10 transcons on UA at $500 each = $5000
Less value of upgrades 50% of the time ($1000-500)*5 = -$2500
Net value $2500
The math is sloppy and numbers open to question, but you get the idea. There is added value to being an elite, so to pretend that there's no benefit paying a higher fare to fly UA vs a Kettle flying as a nobody on a cheaper fare is specious.