United CFO Rainey Implies Certain Elites were "Over Entitled".
May 20, 2012, 5:24 am
#331
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 57,616
5. But tinkering can go too far. Selling last-minute upgrades is definitely "too far." The key to keep your customers happy is to treat them fairly. The airline publishes rules on how upgrades are supposed to work (lately, these rules have gotten too complicated, but that's a topic for another day). Your customers learn the rules and accept them: like everyone knows that a silver will likely get upgraded after a gold. But when you start selling upgrades to the highest bidder, you're disregarding your own rules, and your customers (rightfully) start feeling cheated. You're not giving them what you promised. This is a shameful practice and should be stopped immediately.
If you think about it he is talking about PMUA 1K's , if you are are high enough revenue you get flagged as GS. But the message is that the average 1K is "over-entitled", don't expect your to keep receiving 80 to 90% upgrade rate. Take your annual $20K spend somewhere else for all they care, you are replaceable.
You can try and put all the spin you want on what he said, but at the end of the day, it just can't be considered to be a positive statement. He may have had the best of intentions, but what he said was insulting to a large contingent of United's customers. In what universe is that a positive outcome?
May 20, 2012, 5:31 am
#332
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: SNA
Programs: AA EXP, UA 1K (until it expires then never again), *wood Plat, Marriott Gold
Posts: 9,239
His statement was past tense, and noted they had made (again past tense) changes to the program. So what changes in elite benefits have we seen? We know Silvers and Gold/Plat had reductions which leads me to think that's what he was referring to (E+, mile bonuses etc). Regardless though what an effing stupid thing to actually say and an awful choice of words. This guy needs some lessons in PR big time!
This has not been a good PR month for UA here on FT, between this guy shoving his foot down this throat, the 132K in refunded tickets and the AA match thread....I have to think the folks at UA PR are not loving this.
I wonder has anything this made its way outside FT? Like on UA FB page, twitter etc?
This has not been a good PR month for UA here on FT, between this guy shoving his foot down this throat, the 132K in refunded tickets and the AA match thread....I have to think the folks at UA PR are not loving this.
I wonder has anything this made its way outside FT? Like on UA FB page, twitter etc?
May 20, 2012, 6:09 am
#333
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Programs: UA Plat MM, AA Gold, Hyatt Explorist, Hilton Gold, IHG Plat, Marriott Titanium Elite
Posts: 5,015
I was a 1K on United in 2010 and 2011, dropped to Premier Gold in 2012, and will likely drop to Premier Silver in 2013. I am no longer feeling the love, United. The airline's philosophy of treating higher level elites much like other elites and even as GMs sometimes has become painfully clear. I am now a Platinum Medallion on DL (got a status match in 2011 and earned it for 2012) and will likely make Diamond Medallion later this year. DL does know how to treat its more frequent flyers and give them the great service they deserve.
UA will probably get the message if its losses continue while other airlines are earning record profits. At least one hopes this is the case.
UA will probably get the message if its losses continue while other airlines are earning record profits. At least one hopes this is the case.
Last edited by DCBob; May 20, 2012 at 6:19 am
May 20, 2012, 6:21 am
#334
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: NYC
Programs: UA 1K MM, AA Ex Plt, Hilton Gold
Posts: 17
What I don't understand
I think it is O'K for the United management to decide that the way the Elite program was run was not beneficial to the airline and hence it is their right to change it. For example I guess it is possible for a very savvy traveler to rack up 100,00 miles for $10,000, whereas the 6 systemwide upgrades are by themselves probably worth a lot more. But if that was the case why not be upfront about it, and say that going forward only fares above a certain fare class would earn 100% status miles, and make something like that a part of the new program. Why this lack of transparency for the past few months, pissing off a large group of 1K and GS flyers (many of whom are pax that United would like to hold on for sure), and basically leaving the management in an untenable position going forward. Do they now change the rules to accommodate what they feel are the new realities, or do they backtrack which makes them look weak.
May 20, 2012, 6:37 am
#335
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: LGA/JFK/EWR
Programs: UA 1K1.75MM, Hyatt Globalist, abandoned Marriott LTT (RIP SPG), Hertz PC
Posts: 21,172
Can't wait for the Q2 results, I'm rooting for a huge loss.
It does not matter. The fact is "Elites" are NOT over entitled but "some groups" of Elites ARE. I didn't realize the title of this was NOT exactly what he said and I even listened to it. Would anyone disagree there is a small percentage of 1K's that get this status "on the cheap". Even some GS get this status just cuz they live in an area lightly served by UA and don't spend nearly as much as other GS........... THESE "FEW" ELITES are over entitled. MOST are not
Last edited by FlyinHawaiian; May 20, 2012 at 6:44 am Reason: multi-quote
May 20, 2012, 7:08 am
#336
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Westchester NY
Programs: UA GS 4+ MM
Posts: 373
Changing the words "certain groups" into "elites" and attributing that as a statement from the CFO is at best sensationalistic yellow journalism, and at worst (and most likely given the real $$ income that this BS statement can take away as people see this incorrct statment and book away) slanderous. Perhaps the title where you say the CFO states something he didn't should be changed to what he actualy said.
The point will still getacross, although it won't grab as many viewers, it will be truer to the truth of what he said and not a fabrication attributed to him but really written by the OP.
I'm all for bashing stupid statements made by execs of any company, but let's actually bash their statements and not some BS not stated but wrongfully attributed, deigned to falsely inflame.
I'm no lawyer, but toput a negative statement in print that can financially hurt someone/something attributing it to someon, when they didn't say it ca have some lega consequences. Do I think UA will sue the OP for sander? Doubt it, but is it slanderous in the legal definition to do what the OP did? IMHO, it is, and I watch a lot of "law and order", which gives me no legal credibility but makes me feel like an ADA. Of course, this isn't any legal advice, rather just a personal opinion, asI would not give out legal advice as I am not properly trained or certified to do so.
The point will still getacross, although it won't grab as many viewers, it will be truer to the truth of what he said and not a fabrication attributed to him but really written by the OP.
I'm all for bashing stupid statements made by execs of any company, but let's actually bash their statements and not some BS not stated but wrongfully attributed, deigned to falsely inflame.
I'm no lawyer, but toput a negative statement in print that can financially hurt someone/something attributing it to someon, when they didn't say it ca have some lega consequences. Do I think UA will sue the OP for sander? Doubt it, but is it slanderous in the legal definition to do what the OP did? IMHO, it is, and I watch a lot of "law and order", which gives me no legal credibility but makes me feel like an ADA. Of course, this isn't any legal advice, rather just a personal opinion, asI would not give out legal advice as I am not properly trained or certified to do so.
May 20, 2012, 7:10 am
#337
Join Date: Jan 2010
Programs: AA EXP/LT PLT
Posts: 1,467
No interest in UG for international flights and award tickets?
I think DL is good at UG for domestic flights but US MP is still better for everything else except for some minor perks.
Do I miss something?
May 20, 2012, 8:18 am
#338
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: LAS
Programs: United Premier 1K
Posts: 71
I feel like a fool...
"We have certain groups in this (Mileage Plus) program that were over entitled..." according to United's CFO John Rainey, as per his presentation at the BofA Transportation Conference held on May 17th. The entire webcast is available on United's investor relations website, and he makes the comment 11- 12 minutes into the presentation. Since the CFO is a PMCO guy, I imagine he is referring to PMUA fliers. Mr. Rainey also raves about Shares.
So, I guess we have the answer to all of the complaints enumerated by Premiers, 1Ks, GS, MM, etc. We were simply over entitled, not loyal!! Our new airline.
So, I guess we have the answer to all of the complaints enumerated by Premiers, 1Ks, GS, MM, etc. We were simply over entitled, not loyal!! Our new airline.
May 20, 2012, 8:23 am
#339
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Colorado
Programs: United MM (formerly 1K), Marriott Lifetime Gold
Posts: 551
Are you saying that "certain groups" (which can be very general or very specific) has the same meaning as the all encompassing term "elites", which includes anyone of any status, while "certain groups" sounds like the unnamed groups are more specific. To extrapolate a generic all encompassing term from an unnamed specific, and then attributing that to one who did not say it, is poetic license, which does not exist when attributing something to, or quoting another.
He could have meant "all elites" (doubtful) or a much more specific group (probable) but without a follow up from the CFO, none of us have enough to interpret his meaning, let alone put unspoken words in his mouth.
He could have meant "all elites" (doubtful) or a much more specific group (probable) but without a follow up from the CFO, none of us have enough to interpret his meaning, let alone put unspoken words in his mouth.
May 20, 2012, 8:29 am
#340
Join Date: Jul 2011
Programs: UA 1K, Hertz President's Circle, Hilton Platinum,
Posts: 661
If there's an "entitlement" culture, it's because of the system United had in place. The funny thing is, I thought the UA system was significantly better than the CO system.
I really don't think PMCO understood the PMUA culture they've since destroyed.
I really don't think PMCO understood the PMUA culture they've since destroyed.
May 20, 2012, 8:35 am
#341
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: HPN
Programs: not anymore! I'm FREE!
Posts: 3,459
Nonsense. UA lets upgraders, including those using SWUs, take seats it thinks or knows it can't sell. Yet, it has to fully staff and fly the planes. So, the total cost to UA is almost the same whether the first/business class cabins are empty or full of upgraders. The question is, of the times that someone uses a SWU, in what proportion of those would the passenger have bought a first/business class ticket instead? That's the true cost of SWUs, and I doubt it approaches $10,000 per 6 SWUs.
May 20, 2012, 8:46 am
#342
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA
Programs: DL SM Plat, B6 TrueBlue, UA MP, AAdvantage
Posts: 10,008
It does not matter. The fact is "Elites" are NOT over entitled but "some groups" of Elites ARE. I didn't realize the title of this was NOT exactly what he said and I even listened to it. Would anyone disagree there is a small percentage of 1K's that get this status "on the cheap". Even some GS get this status just cuz they live in an area lightly served by UA and don't spend nearly as much as other GS........... THESE "FEW" ELITES are over entitled. MOST are not
What we can't really deduce from this pretty vague phrase is which MP groups were identified as the most over entitled.
But as was pointed out in an earlier post, this was a past tense statement, so if you look at the changes that have been made to elite benefits, the groups that have seen an overall tangible reduction in benefits are MP silvers, and the million miler members. Of course, 1K's and GS's also lost at least some of their dedicated CS features.
Of course, CPU's on the whole have been much less reliable and, who knows, either this is a result of the systems integration glitches, or perhaps--at least to some degree--a result of SHARES' "dynamic pricing" feature.
May 20, 2012, 8:55 am
#343
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Colorado
Programs: Lifetime UA 1K, Lifetime Hilton Diamond, Lifetime Marriott Bonvoy Titanium
Posts: 1,261
I'm not sure how you got "average 1K". All he said is that SOME frequent flyers are over entitled, which is quite true. With the current MileagePlus program, one can buy very cheap fares, reach 1K easily and get the benefits that he hardly deserve. If we take the IRROPS compensations and VDB vouchers into account, the cost of reaching 1K for some people can be very very low.
May 20, 2012, 8:58 am
#344
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: SFO
Posts: 3,942
Changing the words "certain groups" into "elites" and attributing that as a statement from the CFO is at best sensationalistic yellow journalism, and at worst (and most likely given the real $$ income that this BS statement can take away as people see this incorrct statment and book away) slanderous. Perhaps the title where you say the CFO states something he didn't should be changed to what he actualy said.
The point will still getacross, although it won't grab as many viewers, it will be truer to the truth of what he said and not a fabrication attributed to him but really written by the OP.
I'm all for bashing stupid statements made by execs of any company, but let's actually bash their statements and not some BS not stated but wrongfully attributed, deigned to falsely inflame.
I'm no lawyer, but toput a negative statement in print that can financially hurt someone/something attributing it to someon, when they didn't say it ca have some lega consequences. Do I think UA will sue the OP for sander? Doubt it, but is it slanderous in the legal definition to do what the OP did? IMHO, it is, and I watch a lot of "law and order", which gives me no legal credibility but makes me feel like an ADA. Of course, this isn't any legal advice, rather just a personal opinion, asI would not give out legal advice as I am not properly trained or certified to do so.
The point will still getacross, although it won't grab as many viewers, it will be truer to the truth of what he said and not a fabrication attributed to him but really written by the OP.
I'm all for bashing stupid statements made by execs of any company, but let's actually bash their statements and not some BS not stated but wrongfully attributed, deigned to falsely inflame.
I'm no lawyer, but toput a negative statement in print that can financially hurt someone/something attributing it to someon, when they didn't say it ca have some lega consequences. Do I think UA will sue the OP for sander? Doubt it, but is it slanderous in the legal definition to do what the OP did? IMHO, it is, and I watch a lot of "law and order", which gives me no legal credibility but makes me feel like an ADA. Of course, this isn't any legal advice, rather just a personal opinion, asI would not give out legal advice as I am not properly trained or certified to do so.
Last edited by malgudi; May 20, 2012 at 4:01 pm
May 20, 2012, 8:59 am
#345
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: DEN/OGG
Programs: UA GS
Posts: 1,482
At least they came clean.
Combine hat statement with UAINSIDER finally explaining how upgrades really work now instead of telling us what we saw was a system problem and all the other downgrades in services for every elite from GS down to silver.
Proofs the point that many made that in the past few months most of UA was not truthful. If this is the beginning of them no longer being dishonest and telling it how it really is going to be we can all make decisions based on that data.
That does not mean I like the new UA I just prefer the truth.
Combine hat statement with UAINSIDER finally explaining how upgrades really work now instead of telling us what we saw was a system problem and all the other downgrades in services for every elite from GS down to silver.
Proofs the point that many made that in the past few months most of UA was not truthful. If this is the beginning of them no longer being dishonest and telling it how it really is going to be we can all make decisions based on that data.
That does not mean I like the new UA I just prefer the truth.