Apr 23, 2013, 6:22 pm
Last edit by: WineCountryUA
Presented as Q&A format (Originally posted by Alex_B)
Q: What is a stopover?
A: A stopover on an international itinerary is any break in your air travel for more than 24 hours except at the destination.
Q: What is an open-jaw?
A: An open-jaw is where you travel by your own means (either land, sea or a separate air ticket) between two points in a journey.
Q: How many stopovers am I allowed on a roundtrip award?
A: One stopover, in addition to the destination, is permitted (an unlimited number of stops less than 24hours is allowable).
Q: How many open-jaws are allowed on a roundtrip award?
A: Two open-jaws are permitted. These must be at the stopover, destination or origin.
Q: Can I have a stopover or open-jaw on a one-way award?
A: No
Q: Can I have a open-jaw at both the stopover and destination?
A: Yes, plenty of posters have reported success in booking this
Q: Can I transit my destination multiple times (e.g. fly to JNB, fly to CPT and then return home via JNB)?
A: Yes, plenty of posters have reported success in booking this. You can only stop in your destination for > 24 hours once though.
Q: Can I cross both oceans?
A: Yes. The rule that prohibited crossing both oceans appears to have been removed from both MP and *A award rules. There are many many successful examples of people booking these itineraries.
Q: Is EWR-PVG transatlantic or transpacific?
A: US-East Asia/South East Asia is always transpacific no matter what geography might suggest.
Q: Do I pay more for a stopover or open-jaw?
A: Typically no additional mileage is required but additional taxes or fees are often payable (especially in UK with high Air Passenger Duty). Extra mileage will often be required if an open-jaw or stopover adds a higher cost region into the itinerary. Also awards wholly within CONUS, Canada and Alaska (formerly known as Series 0 awards) require additional mileage (10K miles) for a stopover of >4 hrs.
Q: What's this about a free one-way I can get on awards?
A: The concept of free one-ways is a misnomer and often confuses people, it is better to consider it a stopover in the city of origin. If you have a simple roundtrip award without a stopover, you can often create a stopover and open-jaw at your origin on the return leg to add an addition flight. E.g. I wish to book EWR-LHR (destination)-EWR which is a roundtrip US-Europe award. I could also book this as EWR-LHR (destination)-EWR (stopover)-SFO for the same mileage (and a few dollars of extra tax). The EWR segment would need to be within 330 days of booking and would be subject to the usual change fees.
Other notes:
Seeing your fare construction on an already booked award ticket:
In order to see your award fare construction to see where your stopovers and destination are, follow these steps.
Go to http://www.saudiairlines.com/
Then hit "Manage My Bookings" and select "E-Ticket"
Enter your UA ticket number (hint: 016 will go in the first box, and then everything else in the second box). Then your last name and hit "Retrieve My Booking". On the next page you'll see a line like this under "Fare Calculation":
CHI LH X/FRA LH ROM0.00CSM/YB52 /- FLR LH X/FRA LH X/DUS LH CHI UA SEA
This example is:
ORD-FRA-FCO
Open Jaw at Destination
FLR-FRA-DUS-ORD
Stopover at origin
ORD-SEA
Q: What is a stopover?
A: A stopover on an international itinerary is any break in your air travel for more than 24 hours except at the destination.
Q: What is an open-jaw?
A: An open-jaw is where you travel by your own means (either land, sea or a separate air ticket) between two points in a journey.
Q: How many stopovers am I allowed on a roundtrip award?
A: One stopover, in addition to the destination, is permitted (an unlimited number of stops less than 24hours is allowable).
Q: How many open-jaws are allowed on a roundtrip award?
A: Two open-jaws are permitted. These must be at the stopover, destination or origin.
Q: Can I have a stopover or open-jaw on a one-way award?
A: No
Q: Can I have a open-jaw at both the stopover and destination?
A: Yes, plenty of posters have reported success in booking this
Q: Can I transit my destination multiple times (e.g. fly to JNB, fly to CPT and then return home via JNB)?
A: Yes, plenty of posters have reported success in booking this. You can only stop in your destination for > 24 hours once though.
Q: Can I cross both oceans?
A: Yes. The rule that prohibited crossing both oceans appears to have been removed from both MP and *A award rules. There are many many successful examples of people booking these itineraries.
Q: Is EWR-PVG transatlantic or transpacific?
A: US-East Asia/South East Asia is always transpacific no matter what geography might suggest.
Q: Do I pay more for a stopover or open-jaw?
A: Typically no additional mileage is required but additional taxes or fees are often payable (especially in UK with high Air Passenger Duty). Extra mileage will often be required if an open-jaw or stopover adds a higher cost region into the itinerary. Also awards wholly within CONUS, Canada and Alaska (formerly known as Series 0 awards) require additional mileage (10K miles) for a stopover of >4 hrs.
Q: What's this about a free one-way I can get on awards?
A: The concept of free one-ways is a misnomer and often confuses people, it is better to consider it a stopover in the city of origin. If you have a simple roundtrip award without a stopover, you can often create a stopover and open-jaw at your origin on the return leg to add an addition flight. E.g. I wish to book EWR-LHR (destination)-EWR which is a roundtrip US-Europe award. I could also book this as EWR-LHR (destination)-EWR (stopover)-SFO for the same mileage (and a few dollars of extra tax). The EWR segment would need to be within 330 days of booking and would be subject to the usual change fees.
Other notes:
- The open-jaw portion must be smaller (in miles) than any other leg. -While technically true for revenue fare construction this is not strictly enforced on awards.
- For awards between CONUS/Canada/Alaska and South Asia award regions the maximum number of segments is 5 segments each way on a round-trip and 4 segments on a one-way. (Note that many FTers report recently being read a memo that imposes an eight segment maximum on a roundtrip (4 each way). It is unclear whether this eight-segment maximum is limited to South Asia routings through Europe or North Asia, or has broader application.)
- Stopovers and open-jaws are NOT additive. You do not get extra stops included in your itinerary simply by making an open-jaw out of it.
Seeing your fare construction on an already booked award ticket:
In order to see your award fare construction to see where your stopovers and destination are, follow these steps.
Go to http://www.saudiairlines.com/
Then hit "Manage My Bookings" and select "E-Ticket"
Enter your UA ticket number (hint: 016 will go in the first box, and then everything else in the second box). Then your last name and hit "Retrieve My Booking". On the next page you'll see a line like this under "Fare Calculation":
CHI LH X/FRA LH ROM0.00CSM/YB52 /- FLR LH X/FRA LH X/DUS LH CHI UA SEA
This example is:
ORD-FRA-FCO
Open Jaw at Destination
FLR-FRA-DUS-ORD
Stopover at origin
ORD-SEA
Rules for Open Jaw & Stopover Award Flights (Consolidated)
Mar 5, 2013, 3:35 pm
#781
formerly known as Tad's Broiled Steaks
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,412
Did I say "layover"? If so, that was a mistake.
It's a stopover because I'm spending a week+ traveling from NYC down to IAD. If I cannot do an open jaw on the stopover, I guess I can take the train or something from Washington, D.C. to NYC, but I'd sure rather not.
I just tried - more than once - to book this trip online, without the open jaw stopover and got an error after the RNO > NYC leg. Do some of you actually get these open jaw trips with a stopover to book online?
It's a stopover because I'm spending a week+ traveling from NYC down to IAD. If I cannot do an open jaw on the stopover, I guess I can take the train or something from Washington, D.C. to NYC, but I'd sure rather not.
I just tried - more than once - to book this trip online, without the open jaw stopover and got an error after the RNO > NYC leg. Do some of you actually get these open jaw trips with a stopover to book online?
Mar 5, 2013, 5:05 pm
#782
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: London, UK
Programs: BA Gold, UA Nobody, Hilton Gold
Posts: 2,372
Thanks to all for the replies. I couldn't get the open jaw and stopover booked at the same time. I talked to several agents and asked for the rate desk. It just didn't seem that anyone could force it through.
In the end, the goal was: CLT-FCO/MXP-KUL-CLT
Ended up with CLT-MXP-KUL-CLT
We'll take the train down to FCO from MXP. It appears to be about 120 euro.
But, for only 120k miles for each ticket in business on each segment, it still feels like a great value.
In the end, the goal was: CLT-FCO/MXP-KUL-CLT
Ended up with CLT-MXP-KUL-CLT
We'll take the train down to FCO from MXP. It appears to be about 120 euro.
But, for only 120k miles for each ticket in business on each segment, it still feels like a great value.
PS It's still great value.
Mar 5, 2013, 6:46 pm
#783
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: PSM
Posts: 69,232
It is actually NOT a violation of the rules to have the open jaw at a stopover point. The rules are vague and that's probably not what UA means for them to be, but the way they are currently written in the system it is absolutely permitted. I just redeemed JFK-FRA-HAJ//HAM-CPH-AAR//AAL-CPH-LHR-EWR as a single return trip. The systems will balk at it but an agent actually reading the rules should be able to issue it.
Mar 5, 2013, 7:33 pm
#784
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: SUX
Programs: BA Silver; HHonors Gold; SPG Gold; Points but dirt with everyone else
Posts: 8,050
It is actually NOT a violation of the rules to have the open jaw at a stopover point. The rules are vague and that's probably not what UA means for them to be, but the way they are currently written in the system it is absolutely permitted. I just redeemed JFK-FRA-HAJ//HAM-CPH-AAR//AAL-CPH-LHR-EWR as a single return trip. The systems will balk at it but an agent actually reading the rules should be able to issue it.
Mar 5, 2013, 7:47 pm
#785
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 749
Keep an eye out, book without the 2nd OJ, and then call in during a schedule change and say "We need to fly into FCO instead of MXP (and availability exists) you can get them to change it and manually re-ticket without a change fee. Just say you had planned overland trips and needed to be there. I've done this when a flight changed by a significant enough amount of time.
Mar 6, 2013, 1:51 am
#787
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 699
sorry for the newbie questions. i'm trying to redeem for an itinerary for 3 and if i try searching for flights by segment i can see lots of available flights but when i use the advanced search button some flights disappear. i think i'm following the rules with one stopover and one open jaw:
EWR-BCN
BCN-DME
PRG-EWR
all the flights should be on LH and UA if that makes a difference. i spoke with someone by phone and was told that LH doesn't release all available segments if you build an itinerary segment by segment? also was told if a flight later becomes available i'll still be charged a change fee even if the destinations, dates, and airlines remain the same? for some reason i always thought change fees were waived as long as the flights were >21 days out and destinations, dates, and airlines stayed the same? i would really appreciate some help as i'm just really confused now
ETA: previous posters seem to recommend booking a RT and then adding openjaws/stopovers. i can try that but i would think that if i can see specific segments available for 3 an agent should be able to build the itinerary for me (didnt happen during my recent phone call)? thanks again!
EWR-BCN
BCN-DME
PRG-EWR
all the flights should be on LH and UA if that makes a difference. i spoke with someone by phone and was told that LH doesn't release all available segments if you build an itinerary segment by segment? also was told if a flight later becomes available i'll still be charged a change fee even if the destinations, dates, and airlines remain the same? for some reason i always thought change fees were waived as long as the flights were >21 days out and destinations, dates, and airlines stayed the same? i would really appreciate some help as i'm just really confused now
ETA: previous posters seem to recommend booking a RT and then adding openjaws/stopovers. i can try that but i would think that if i can see specific segments available for 3 an agent should be able to build the itinerary for me (didnt happen during my recent phone call)? thanks again!
Last edited by brownie20; Mar 6, 2013 at 2:01 am
Mar 6, 2013, 5:05 am
#788
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: PSM
Posts: 69,232
And, while I agree that UA likely means for the open jaws to be at the beginning or end of the trip I've had more than one supervisor confirm to me that the way the rule is currently written in the system it is not required.
Yes, they should. Try another agent.
Mar 6, 2013, 6:39 am
#789
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: SUX
Programs: BA Silver; HHonors Gold; SPG Gold; Points but dirt with everyone else
Posts: 8,050
There is no difference between a "surface sector" and an "open jaw" in this context. Both involve continuing the journey from an airport other than the one you previously arrived at. My guess is that the system balks at the extra ARUNK in the record when trying to price but I cannot prove that.
Mar 6, 2013, 9:03 am
#790
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 47
I just booked a similar trip a week or two ago and couldn't get it to price out on the website. I needed to book the overseas portions and then add the stopover on the phone. They didn't charge me a fee and it was a quick and easy process. Just make sure you know exactly what flights you want and feed them to the agent.
Originally Posted by SidewinderX
Hi All,
Considering a trip to SE Asia in November as a good use of my miles. This is the routing I'm considering:
Washington DC -> Hanoi (Stopover)
Hanoi -> Bangkok (Destination)
Overland, ending up in Phnom Penh (Open Jaw)
Phnom Penh -> Washington DC
Is that a valid roundtrip? Or do I need to break it up into one-ways?
I've done some searching on the United site and I can find availability for each leg when I look at each as a one way, but the site seems to refuse to accept the itinerary if I put it in as a multi-city trip. Is this a trip that I would also have book over the phone?
Also, I'd love to do this as a Saver 1st class trip, but there isn't a ton of saver first class availability. (Although there are plenty of saver business class options) Any chance saver first opens up over time? Or am I pretty much restricted to what I see on the United site now?
Also -- I've noticed that there are options to go transpacific and via Europe... do I have to pick one and go that way on both ends to avoid paying for a round-the-world award ticket?
Thanks!
Considering a trip to SE Asia in November as a good use of my miles. This is the routing I'm considering:
Washington DC -> Hanoi (Stopover)
Hanoi -> Bangkok (Destination)
Overland, ending up in Phnom Penh (Open Jaw)
Phnom Penh -> Washington DC
Is that a valid roundtrip? Or do I need to break it up into one-ways?
I've done some searching on the United site and I can find availability for each leg when I look at each as a one way, but the site seems to refuse to accept the itinerary if I put it in as a multi-city trip. Is this a trip that I would also have book over the phone?
Also, I'd love to do this as a Saver 1st class trip, but there isn't a ton of saver first class availability. (Although there are plenty of saver business class options) Any chance saver first opens up over time? Or am I pretty much restricted to what I see on the United site now?
Also -- I've noticed that there are options to go transpacific and via Europe... do I have to pick one and go that way on both ends to avoid paying for a round-the-world award ticket?
Thanks!
Mar 6, 2013, 9:24 am
#791
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: London, UK
Programs: BA Gold, UA Nobody, Hilton Gold
Posts: 2,372
Hi All,
Considering a trip to SE Asia in November as a good use of my miles. This is the routing I'm considering:
Washington DC -> Hanoi (Stopover)
Hanoi -> Bangkok (Destination)
Overland, ending up in Phnom Penh (Open Jaw)
Phnom Penh -> Washington DC
Is that a valid roundtrip?
Or do I need to break it up into one-ways?
I've done some searching on the United site and I can find availability for each leg when I look at each as a one way, but the site seems to refuse to accept the itinerary if I put it in as a multi-city trip. Is this a trip that I would also have book over the phone?
Also, I'd love to do this as a Saver 1st class trip, but there isn't a ton of saver first class availability. (Although there are plenty of saver business class options) Any chance saver first opens up over time? Or am I pretty much restricted to what I see on the United site now?
Also -- I've noticed that there are options to go transpacific and via Europe... do I have to pick one and go that way on both ends to avoid paying for a round-the-world award ticket?
Thanks!
Considering a trip to SE Asia in November as a good use of my miles. This is the routing I'm considering:
Washington DC -> Hanoi (Stopover)
Hanoi -> Bangkok (Destination)
Overland, ending up in Phnom Penh (Open Jaw)
Phnom Penh -> Washington DC
Is that a valid roundtrip?
Or do I need to break it up into one-ways?
I've done some searching on the United site and I can find availability for each leg when I look at each as a one way, but the site seems to refuse to accept the itinerary if I put it in as a multi-city trip. Is this a trip that I would also have book over the phone?
Also, I'd love to do this as a Saver 1st class trip, but there isn't a ton of saver first class availability. (Although there are plenty of saver business class options) Any chance saver first opens up over time? Or am I pretty much restricted to what I see on the United site now?
Also -- I've noticed that there are options to go transpacific and via Europe... do I have to pick one and go that way on both ends to avoid paying for a round-the-world award ticket?
Thanks!
If the multi-segment search won't work then book whatever you can get to price correctly (roundtrip without the stop and/or open jaw) then call in within 24hrs to fix it by phone. You'll need to know the details of your new segments to help the agent.
First may open up depending on the airline. On UA metal you can book Saver business and then waitlist Saver first for free; on non-UA metal I don't believe you can waitlist. If you can't waitlist, then you'll have to pay a change fee of up to $75 depending on your elite level.
The rules are unclear on the two-oceans rule. It isn't a rule for standard or saver awards, but is a rule for *A awards. The website books everything as a standard or saver award and so will book two-ocean trips, phone agents sometime state this against the rules but it varies. If you don't like the answer you get, hang up and try again!
Mar 6, 2013, 11:32 am
#792
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 699
thanks so much for your help! i think the regular CSR i spoke with in the middle of the night was just clueless - the premier desk CSRs today were able to find the flights i wanted when i gave them the exact flight details. both however were unable to ticket this itinerary with ? 2 OJ + ? 1 stopover :
EWR-BCN (stopover + openjaw)
VIE-LED (openjaw)
DME-EWR
is it because some of the openjaws are also stopovers? or just too many cities? would really appreciate any thoughts as i'm getting really confused looking at all the possibilities thanks again!!
i think the regular CSR i spoke with in the middle of the night was just clueless - the premier desk CSRs today were able to find the flights i wanted when i gave them the exact flight details. both however were unable to ticket this itinerary with ? 2 OJ + ? 1 stopover :EWR-BCN (stopover + openjaw)
VIE-LED (openjaw)
DME-EWR
is it because some of the openjaws are also stopovers? or just too many cities? would really appreciate any thoughts as i'm getting really confused looking at all the possibilities
thanks again!!
Last edited by brownie20; Mar 6, 2013 at 12:15 pm Reason: cohesion
Mar 6, 2013, 12:42 pm
#793
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: PSM
Posts: 69,232
Mar 6, 2013, 12:55 pm
#794
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 13
I suggested to one agent that she send it to the rate desk and she assured me they only deal with revenue flights and not award trips.
Last edited by mjsinch; Mar 6, 2013 at 12:55 pm Reason: added clarification
Mar 6, 2013, 1:05 pm
#795
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 47
Yes it's a valid roundtrip. Don't break it into one ways as it will be much more expensive.
If the multi-segment search won't work then book whatever you can get to price correctly (roundtrip without the stop and/or open jaw) then call in within 24hrs to fix it by phone. You'll need to know the details of your new segments to help the agent.
First may open up depending on the airline. On UA metal you can book Saver business and then waitlist Saver first for free; on non-UA metal I don't believe you can waitlist. If you can't waitlist, then you'll have to pay a change fee of up to $75 depending on your elite level.
The rules are unclear on the two-oceans rule. It isn't a rule for standard or saver awards, but is a rule for *A awards. The website books everything as a standard or saver award and so will book two-ocean trips, phone agents sometime state this against the rules but it varies. If you don't like the answer you get, hang up and try again!
If the multi-segment search won't work then book whatever you can get to price correctly (roundtrip without the stop and/or open jaw) then call in within 24hrs to fix it by phone. You'll need to know the details of your new segments to help the agent.
First may open up depending on the airline. On UA metal you can book Saver business and then waitlist Saver first for free; on non-UA metal I don't believe you can waitlist. If you can't waitlist, then you'll have to pay a change fee of up to $75 depending on your elite level.
The rules are unclear on the two-oceans rule. It isn't a rule for standard or saver awards, but is a rule for *A awards. The website books everything as a standard or saver award and so will book two-ocean trips, phone agents sometime state this against the rules but it varies. If you don't like the answer you get, hang up and try again!