Travel? I just see it as bureaucratic really, you have to get a test to travel within Europe lets say even if you don't need to quarantine. Let's see what happens as cases go down globally.

Scientists do science. They don't make political decisions: we don't live in a tehnocracy They are professionals who attempt to make sense of the world by examining data and formulating conclusions based on the evidence. Whether they are left-leaning or right-leaning has no purchase outside internet conspiracy theory. At the level of Covid-related modelling passed on to government, the work will likely be peer reviewed.

The delicate business of squaring the science with economics and political expediency is currently is in the hands our elected politicians. Not the scientific community.

I don’t need to broadcast any personal information on here to strangers. BUT let’s just say I know full well the impacts of this and the devastation it’s bringing. Possibly more than most here. This sort of economic impact has happened and will always happen as we continue to be a currency focused civilisation. But I fear your argument comes as if this is a bad financial crash or 9/11 type scenario that we need to move on from as quick as possible. I’m sure you appreciate it’s more complicated than that.

This is a global health pandemic. Unprecedented. Never been seen in living memories. An infectious disease. Not a financial mistype or fraud or some terrorists attempting to overthrow governments. So you can argue people are losing their jobs etc but people are losing their lives, being hospitalised, losing their family members.

Jobs will always come back. Lives do not.

Vaccines are clearly a key to the way out but they are not the cure. The vaccines on offer are 60-80% effective!?! But not 100%. They are not a cure. So I think people do understand the point of vaccines and why we are getting vaccinated, if that wasn’t the case 32 million people in the U.K. wouldn’t have bothered.

My kids have taken a similarly serious approach to Covid safety. Unfortunately, I do see a lot of 20-somethings behaving recklessly. Little risk to themselves but a danger to many other people.

With respect I think this was the point I was making, it is a very difficult balance to weigh infections, deaths, and the economy together. Scientific advisors should only advise based on the first two of those three. Politicians will get advice on economic impacts from others, and ultimately have to decide on the course to be taken.

To be fair I haven't given my own judgement on which way is the best, but merely pointed out that there has clearly been more than one approach to dealing with this pandemic. Also it is far from clear that Australia is suffering economically or needing to maintain large numbers of unemployed, I note the furlough scheme has stopped in Australia whereas the one in the UK continues to the end of September.

https://www.theguardian.com/business...-deloitte-says
https://www.theage.com.au/national/p...16-p57jqh.html
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...-idUSKCN2AV02X

I don't want borders closed and restrictions in place any more than necessary - I quite like travel in case it isn't obvious :)

Is that morally correct though? Using the NHS as an international testing service?

Reminds me of when people would come to the UK from abroad to get free healthcare funded by the UK taxpayer before the NHS finally started getting stricter about it.

I think the Govt need to be careful with the amount of test kits they send out to households, one test kit a day is too much, they need to have some sorts of checks and balances, it can't be a free for all with no accountability whatsoever.

I report my negative tests to help to keep my local area at a low positivity rate, which up here matters a lot in removing lockdown measures... So it makes me feel like I am doing my wee part in helping society open up. :D

That's disgraceful. You should be ashamed of your actions. You have lost any credibility you may have had. In this thread posters may not agree on everything, but I would say that we are all united in protecting NHS resources - whether it is a test kit or a ventilator ward. You have a stain on your character. To then brag about it when you are in one of the countries that has one of the highest death rates is just an embarrasment. Utter disgrace.

Question to try and soften the tones before we are at each other’s throats: do you know what in the NHS LFD kit is recyclable besides the boxes?

We’ve been using them quite a lot at home and the amount of plastic packaging is quite surprising.

Pretty sure the leaflet (staples removed), QC certificate (the really small one), and the cardboard bit that holds everything in the box and doubles as the extraction tube holder.

Thanks! :)

I'm seeing quite a few boxes in my building's mail room. Good to see these being used: I've got my first day at work on the 26th for my new job & I'll surely test the evening before just to be on the safe side. Passing Covid to my bosses might not be very helpful in getting through probation!

Both Pfizer and AZ are considered to be close to 100% effective against serious illness and death. Recent indications (eg the recent Wandsworth batch of cases) suggest this is still the case against the 'dreaded' variants, be it SA, BRA, IND or whichever batch the press decide to focus on today...

The purpose of lockdowns, massive economic cost etc was to protect the NHS from being overwhelmed. Now the chances of that happening again are very, very low, and the shackles simply have to come off.

That's a fair point.

Just with regards to furlough or support payments, I was only referring to aviation, where there is a package to that sector specifically, which includes support for people working in jobs associated with International travel. https://www.internationalairportrevi...an-government/

The Australian economy is doing well now, but there will be tax hikes soon and undoubtedly in the future: https://www.news.com.au/finance/mone...f76d34e548718c

Also, Australia relies heavily on exporting iron ore, coal and services such as international students studying at Australian universities. There are many factions in the current ruling Liberal Party who think climate change is not real, and this will hurt the economy with how the rest of the world is moving. Anyway, this is too way off topic, I think my main point is that fat lady hasn't sang yet, and there is a lot to happen before we reach that point, which is likely to be a few years away.

I'm not sure what the comparison of this to other financial crises has to do with anything? Never did I say we need to "move on", but I definitely believe we should be rectifying things as fast as possible and restrictions should not last one second beyond what is needed - do you disagree?

And your point on infectious disease - we have infectious disease in the form of flu, that we still have 9k deaths a year. Do you want us to be at a point where that death toll is 0? Because that is impossible. Vaccines have shown to reduce hospitalisation and deaths by almost 100% - so as far as a cure, this is pretty close.

And once again, I'm not saying get rid of all restrictions, but many need to be eased. Masks are extremely effective in preventing infection, and I think mask rules will remain and should remain for a while yet. As should very frequent testing - I think the fact that everyone in the UK can get free tests weekly is great - although for those that test positive, we need financial support for them. Test and trace is working much better now, every single traveller is tested when they arrive into the UK.

Are you honestly suggesting the above restrictions are not sufficient for the immediate future? Because if you are, then you obviously want Covid-0, which is nigh on impossible.

I'm absolutely certain that everyone - on this forum, in Parliament, in the scientific and medical communities and elsewhere - would agree that restrictions should not last beyond what is needed. Where we disagree is in how we define "needed", and there is clearly a very wide range of opinion on this.