Reimbursment For Costs Associated With A Canceled Vacation Due To Work Reasons
May 10, 2006, 2:39 pm
#16
FlyerTalk Evangelist, Ambassador: World of Hyatt
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: NJ
Programs: Hyatt Globalist, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, UA Silver, dirt elsewhere
Posts: 46,919
This is getting better by the minute...
First saying you're going to flame bait and then starting to do it.
Classic & expected. It was just a matter of time. Have the self-contradictions started yet?
I guess some people just don't have anything to do except flame bait on a travel BB and take out multiple ids to do so
It's really kind of sad.
First saying you're going to flame bait and then starting to do it.
Classic & expected. It was just a matter of time. Have the self-contradictions started yet?
I guess some people just don't have anything to do except flame bait on a travel BB and take out multiple ids to do so
It's really kind of sad.
May 10, 2006, 3:08 pm
#17
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: SAN
Posts: 2,426
I think that the answer depends upon the idea of professionalism and whether the OP considers him/herself a professional.
A professional is committed to getting a job done. This may mean working extra hours, using weekend days, or, even, cancelling vacations. I've never cancelled a vacation, but I have missed concerts and sporting events. If you're a professional you eat the costs. That is, unless, perhaps, there is a client who can be billed (and won't notice or mind). The costs shouldn't come out of the firm. (BTW, I have made refundable reservations for personal trips at times that I thought I may have to cancel.)
On the other hand, if the OP considers him/herself simply an employee of the firm (hourly or otherwise), without professional obligations, then expecting the firm to reimburse for cancelled plans is fully appropriate.
A professional is committed to getting a job done. This may mean working extra hours, using weekend days, or, even, cancelling vacations. I've never cancelled a vacation, but I have missed concerts and sporting events. If you're a professional you eat the costs. That is, unless, perhaps, there is a client who can be billed (and won't notice or mind). The costs shouldn't come out of the firm. (BTW, I have made refundable reservations for personal trips at times that I thought I may have to cancel.)
On the other hand, if the OP considers him/herself simply an employee of the firm (hourly or otherwise), without professional obligations, then expecting the firm to reimburse for cancelled plans is fully appropriate.
May 10, 2006, 3:22 pm
#18
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57
Originally Posted by schwarm
I think that the answer depends upon the idea of professionalism and whether the OP considers him/herself a professional.
A professional is committed to getting a job done. This may mean working extra hours, using weekend days, or, even, cancelling vacations. I've never cancelled a vacation, but I have missed concerts and sporting events. If you're a professional you eat the costs. That is, unless, perhaps, there is a client who can be billed (and won't notice or mind). The costs shouldn't come out of the firm. (BTW, I have made refundable reservations for personal trips at times that I thought I may have to cancel.)
On the other hand, if the OP considers him/herself simply an employee of the firm (hourly or otherwise), without professional obligations, then expecting the firm to reimburse for cancelled plans is fully appropriate.
A professional is committed to getting a job done. This may mean working extra hours, using weekend days, or, even, cancelling vacations. I've never cancelled a vacation, but I have missed concerts and sporting events. If you're a professional you eat the costs. That is, unless, perhaps, there is a client who can be billed (and won't notice or mind). The costs shouldn't come out of the firm. (BTW, I have made refundable reservations for personal trips at times that I thought I may have to cancel.)
On the other hand, if the OP considers him/herself simply an employee of the firm (hourly or otherwise), without professional obligations, then expecting the firm to reimburse for cancelled plans is fully appropriate.
still i can't fault the op for trying to take advantage of a good first class deal on emirates, my guess between new zealand and australia. it was a gamble, and he lost. now he must pay.
it reminds me of a story one of my girlfriends from america once told me. her grandson worked for some big bank. to save the bank money on a business trip, the son stayed at a friend's house rather than an expsnvie hotel. then the son billed the company for some meals not at the hotel, but at outside unapproved restaurants. the son thought he was still saving the bank money. the bank wasn't impressed, and they fired him. i think they did the right thing. my my, maybe that story isn't too relevant. sorry.
May 10, 2006, 3:43 pm
#19
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2001
Location: South Bend, IN
Programs: AA EXP 3 MM; Marriott Bonvoy Lifetime Titanium Elite
Posts: 18,562
Originally Posted by schwarm
I think that the answer depends upon the idea of professionalism and whether the OP considers him/herself a professional.
A professional is committed to getting a job done. This may mean working extra hours, using weekend days, or, even, cancelling vacations. I've never cancelled a vacation, but I have missed concerts and sporting events. If you're a professional you eat the costs. That is, unless, perhaps, there is a client who can be billed (and won't notice or mind). The costs shouldn't come out of the firm. (BTW, I have made refundable reservations for personal trips at times that I thought I may have to cancel.)
On the other hand, if the OP considers him/herself simply an employee of the firm (hourly or otherwise), without professional obligations, then expecting the firm to reimburse for cancelled plans is fully appropriate.
A professional is committed to getting a job done. This may mean working extra hours, using weekend days, or, even, cancelling vacations. I've never cancelled a vacation, but I have missed concerts and sporting events. If you're a professional you eat the costs. That is, unless, perhaps, there is a client who can be billed (and won't notice or mind). The costs shouldn't come out of the firm. (BTW, I have made refundable reservations for personal trips at times that I thought I may have to cancel.)
On the other hand, if the OP considers him/herself simply an employee of the firm (hourly or otherwise), without professional obligations, then expecting the firm to reimburse for cancelled plans is fully appropriate.
I made these plans long before this assignment came my way. As I stated in the OP, I am not complaining about having to postpone my plans -- the deal is too important, too interesting and I've put too much into it to bail now. I'll go at some other point or go somewhere else. The company pretty-much forces you to use your allotted vacation time.
If I made the plans after knowing the timeline of the deal I would certainly not expect the company to make me whole. That is not the case here.
The company is also in a better position to absord the cost. It's a $46 billion/year company. I barely make six figures.
Last edited by PresRDC; May 10, 2006 at 3:50 pm
May 10, 2006, 3:47 pm
#20
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2001
Location: South Bend, IN
Programs: AA EXP 3 MM; Marriott Bonvoy Lifetime Titanium Elite
Posts: 18,562
Originally Posted by casapasqual
i sort of agree with you. the op was a bit sketchy on the details, perhaps intentionally, perhaps with good reason. if he/she/shim is some sort of hourly employee, and they made him change his confirmed vacation plans, they should absord the costs. but it sort of sounded to me like he/she/shim travels often for the company, and might not be an hourly non/professional type employee.. there is a reason refundable tickets cost more; it's sort of like an insurance policy in that you can cancel them or get your money back.
still i can't fault the op for trying to take advantage of a good first class deal on emirates, my guess between new zealand and australia. it was a gamble, and he lost. now he must pay.
still i can't fault the op for trying to take advantage of a good first class deal on emirates, my guess between new zealand and australia. it was a gamble, and he lost. now he must pay.
When I booked the ticket, it was the only fare offered. I never asked for a non-refundable fare. The fare was the fare.
May 10, 2006, 3:57 pm
#21
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 57
Originally Posted by PresRDC
It is a one-way F fare between AKL and MEL. I did it because, when the free limo on both ends is included, it is only a modest premium over economy.
When I booked the ticket, it was the only fare offered. I never asked for a non-refundable fare. The fare was the fare.
When I booked the ticket, it was the only fare offered. I never asked for a non-refundable fare. The fare was the fare.
if they didn't disclose that they were selling you a nonrefundable fare, i would think you have a good case for a refund. but you have to swear on a really high stack of bibles. i don't think you're getting any of that money back. and you won't get the Delta miles from Emirates either. you're getting what some people refer to as "bupkis". can anyone translate that?
May 10, 2006, 4:05 pm
#22
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: DEN
Programs: UA 1MM, Delta Plat
Posts: 11,224
There's a difference between hourly employees and exempt/professional. The hourly employee takes their vacation whenever they want, minimal thoughts about company needs. The professional usually takes about half (or less) of their annual vacation allotment, misses MANY home functions, cancels or reschedules minor, flexible trips.
When you plan a vacation out of the country, getting award tix, etc., the planning is so far in advance you can't possibly guess at what's going on at work.
When I was in China, my wife and I were going to go to SIN for the weekend. The big boss was in town, and we were going over a lot of project material. From where we were, it took five hours to get to the HKG airport. Our meeting ran long, and we missed the flight. We had purchased non-refundable special fares and prepurchased a PL hotel. The boss told me to turn everything in for reimbursement, and told me to take an extra day on my next trip on him.
It is perfectly reasonable to expect reimbursement for any non-refundable costs for this unexpected cancellation. First class, coach class or steerage. It's your vacation to get away from the massive hours you give to "the man" every week.
When you plan a vacation out of the country, getting award tix, etc., the planning is so far in advance you can't possibly guess at what's going on at work.
When I was in China, my wife and I were going to go to SIN for the weekend. The big boss was in town, and we were going over a lot of project material. From where we were, it took five hours to get to the HKG airport. Our meeting ran long, and we missed the flight. We had purchased non-refundable special fares and prepurchased a PL hotel. The boss told me to turn everything in for reimbursement, and told me to take an extra day on my next trip on him.
It is perfectly reasonable to expect reimbursement for any non-refundable costs for this unexpected cancellation. First class, coach class or steerage. It's your vacation to get away from the massive hours you give to "the man" every week.
May 10, 2006, 4:51 pm
#23
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Programs: UA 1K 1MMer & LT UC (when flying UA); Hyatt Credit Cardist; HHonors Diamond; Marriott Gold via UA 1K
Posts: 6,956
As the saying goes, "It never hurts to ask." If I were in that situation, I would explain the situation to my supervisor, ask if I could be reimbursed, and - if the answer is "no," just eat it and move on. Sure, it would suck, but it wouldn't suck as much as getting passed over for a promotion - or worse - for $800. (It's amazing what supervisors can do subtly and within the law to sabatoge a subordinate's career.)
May 10, 2006, 6:47 pm
#24
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: SAN
Posts: 2,426
Originally Posted by PresRDC
That makes no sense. The professional is someone who does what it takes to get the job done and doesn't complain if plans have to change. The sucker is someone who expects to have to eat the costs when the event giving rise to the work need wasn't foreseeable when the plans were made.
I made these plans long before this assignment came my way. As I stated in the OP, I am not complaining about having to postpone my plans -- the deal is too important, too interesting and I've put too much into it to bail now. I'll go at some other point or go somewhere else. The company pretty-much forces you to use your allotted vacation time.
If I made the plans after knowing the timeline of the deal I would certainly not expect the company to make me whole. That is not the case here.
The company is also in a better position to absord the cost. It's a $46 billion/year company. I barely make six figures.
I made these plans long before this assignment came my way. As I stated in the OP, I am not complaining about having to postpone my plans -- the deal is too important, too interesting and I've put too much into it to bail now. I'll go at some other point or go somewhere else. The company pretty-much forces you to use your allotted vacation time.
If I made the plans after knowing the timeline of the deal I would certainly not expect the company to make me whole. That is not the case here.
The company is also in a better position to absord the cost. It's a $46 billion/year company. I barely make six figures.
May 10, 2006, 8:22 pm
#25
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2001
Location: South Bend, IN
Programs: AA EXP 3 MM; Marriott Bonvoy Lifetime Titanium Elite
Posts: 18,562
Originally Posted by schwarm
I guess if there is no prospect for additional compensation, a bonus, a raise, etc., relating to this deal, then I suppose I would ask for reimbursement.
The irony is that I left law firm practice (and took a $30K pay cut) to get more predictability into my life. I grew tired of never being able to plan in advance for anything. The reason corporations can pay less than law firms is that they offer a better quality of life. Like I said, I really don't mind as I'm really into the project. I just don't want to have to take a financial hit on top of the one I took to take the job.
May 10, 2006, 8:28 pm
#26
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Back to Florida...... bye London
Programs: Hilton, AA,, Delta
Posts: 5,149
The OP has said that he is willing to postpone the vacation. That's the mark of a professional. A professional is one who knows how much their time and knowledge is worth. And that includes the importance of their own personal time and money. To say that a professional should eat the cost of a personal vacation because their company decides that it should be cancelled is silly. It's the person who realizes their worth that will request a reimbursement of their loss.
May 10, 2006, 9:04 pm
#27
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: IAD
Programs: Free Agent
Posts: 1,937
One rule of thumb is to schedule your vacation on a day where you'll have a work conflict. In my experience, the work schedule usually gets moved around, so you'll be safe
I have an informal agreement with my boss. He knows that I hate Southern California (but I love the job) and that I go home to the Bay Area whenever I can. So he lets me flex my time and whatnot when we aren't in critical work periods as long as the work gets done. And when we are, I commit to staying until the work gets done. Due to uncertain schedules and slips, I've frequently had to buy refundable tickets or cancel non-refundable itineraries (and eat the change fee). In my opinion, to ask my company to pay for any change fees would be unprofessional and borderline unethical.
For major vacations, I always clear it with my manager. If he gives me the go-ahead to book my trip and work comes up, he'll just tell me to go and take off. He's of the opinion that there's always going to be work and you have to have a life outside of it. Of course, I'd be working day and night prior to my trip to minimize the impact to my co-workers. And if it was important enough, I'd just go ahead, cancel the trip and eat the cancellation fees.
I think that actions described in the scenarios above set a certain level of profesionalism. Yes, you sometimes take a hit in the pocketbook, but such actions rarely go unnoticed.
I have an informal agreement with my boss. He knows that I hate Southern California (but I love the job) and that I go home to the Bay Area whenever I can. So he lets me flex my time and whatnot when we aren't in critical work periods as long as the work gets done. And when we are, I commit to staying until the work gets done. Due to uncertain schedules and slips, I've frequently had to buy refundable tickets or cancel non-refundable itineraries (and eat the change fee). In my opinion, to ask my company to pay for any change fees would be unprofessional and borderline unethical.
For major vacations, I always clear it with my manager. If he gives me the go-ahead to book my trip and work comes up, he'll just tell me to go and take off. He's of the opinion that there's always going to be work and you have to have a life outside of it. Of course, I'd be working day and night prior to my trip to minimize the impact to my co-workers. And if it was important enough, I'd just go ahead, cancel the trip and eat the cancellation fees.
I think that actions described in the scenarios above set a certain level of profesionalism. Yes, you sometimes take a hit in the pocketbook, but such actions rarely go unnoticed.
May 10, 2006, 11:47 pm
#28
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: SAN
Posts: 2,426
Originally Posted by MoreMilesPlease
The OP has said that he is willing to postpone the vacation. That's the mark of a professional. A professional is one who knows how much their time and knowledge is worth. And that includes the importance of their own personal time and money. To say that a professional should eat the cost of a personal vacation because their company decides that it should be cancelled is silly. It's the person who realizes their worth that will request a reimbursement of their loss.
May 11, 2006, 6:15 am
#29
Suspended
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 13,344
I worked for a non-profit and we ran into a problem where a number of people had to cancel or reschedule vacations. One guy was booked on a week all inclusive in Mexico or something; he stood to lose ~$3k between the 2 of them. The agency reimbursed him the full cost - it was not his fault he couldn't take vacation.
May 11, 2006, 9:10 am
#30
Join Date: Nov 2004
Programs: Legend in my own mind
Posts: 244
Originally Posted by casapasqual
Looks like your topic isn't generating that much interest so i'll make a sympathy posting here.
i think your employer should not have to pay. you are the one that decided to save money with the non-refundable ticket, right? had you bought a more expensive refundable ticket, you woulnd't be in this situation.
i don't think your employer should bail you out of your poor planning, although i admit i probably would have bought the non refundable ticket myself, seems like a bit of a bargain.
if i were the decision maker at your place of employment and someone came to me asking for that kind of reimbursement, my jaw would drop open.
i think your employer should not have to pay. you are the one that decided to save money with the non-refundable ticket, right? had you bought a more expensive refundable ticket, you woulnd't be in this situation.
i don't think your employer should bail you out of your poor planning, although i admit i probably would have bought the non refundable ticket myself, seems like a bit of a bargain.
if i were the decision maker at your place of employment and someone came to me asking for that kind of reimbursement, my jaw would drop open.
Poor planning? Please....