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What's the best foreign language to learn?

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Old Dec 21, 2019 | 8:44 pm
  #46  
 
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Originally Posted by YVR Cockroach
All depends on where you're from (in Malaysia), and which neighbourhood (in Singapore)! For Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur and Ipoh are very Cantonese (the former is what might give you that impression) while Penang is very Hokkein and Cameron Highlands is Hainan. I'm not sure what Chinese dialects prevail in other big cities in Malaysia (there are, apparently, small towns that are predominantly Hakka).

When I was a child in Singapore (been decades for me) certain old neighborhoods in old Singapore (largely gone all redeveloped and inhabitants moved to HDB flats) were reputed to inhabited by speakers of certain dialects. Before people started to mandarinize names, it was very easy to discern a Chinese person's dialectical ancestry by the anglicised spelling of their names. I certainly remember people with Cantonese names though, as you say, Hokkein and TeoChew are more prevalent.
It is true that some parts of Malaysia (ie. Penang) speaks Hokkien, the same can be said for parts of North Sumatra (Medan in particular) where local Chinese immigrants brought some parts of their Hokkien language that has been incorporated into Indonesian language. The reason why I cite Malaysia as having more Cantonese speakers is that HK TVB serials broadcasted in Malaysia is still dubbed in the original Cantonese, while in Singapore it has all been dubbed in Mandarin Chinese. The Singapore government's practical approach was that it knew China would be the growing force forward in Asia and adopted the simplified script and common Mandarin speech in the national education system. This also made it easier for immigrants who were lowly educated then. In Taiwan and Hong Kong, the Chinese there used to be the wealthier immigrants and landowners who escaped the Communist rule, and their educated upbringing meant they easily adopted the traditional script which is much more complex. I was able to read both as I grew up reading comics in Singapore imported from Taiwan and the script was in traditional Chinese. In Singapore, the Hokkien dialect is actually used frequently during National Service so nearly all Singapore males would know certain Hokkien words and that is why I say Hokkien dialect is perhaps still in use in Singapore today, especially if you venture into the heartland neighbourhoods. Do note that Taiwan has Min-dialect which is similar to Hokkien, but the lack of popular culture in media meant Hokkien is not as widely recognized compared to Cantonese by foreigners, when it is maybe spoken and understood by more Chinese.

I do have to applaud the move by China to adopt a unified Chinese language and script though as that would really be confusing for business, trade and tourism if all the dialect groups in China are used.
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Old Dec 21, 2019 | 8:48 pm
  #47  
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Originally Posted by moondog
As you probably know, one of the many Chinese words for Mandarin is 普通话, which = common language. I think this term was coined during the 1950s around the same time simplified Chinese characters were introduced in Mainland China. Both of these measures were designed to facilitate communication between people from different regions, and also improve the literacy rate (i.e. simple characters might not be pretty, but they are easy to learn)..
I'm illiterate but presumably it is phonetically "putonghua". Mandarin is/was also known as the equivalent of "national language" (in the RoC) and "Chinese language" (IIRC in SE Asia). I don't now what it is called in Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand and the Philippines.

As far as facilitating communication goes, the same occured in Qubec a few centuries ago with people coming from all over what is now France (but mostly from the west). They apparently decided to standardise on a dialect understood in Ile de France area.

New countries like the U.S. and Canada (latter where English was prevalent) didn't really have languages developng in relative isolation. I would say accents did develop locally, probably fuelled by ethnic pockets.

Resurgent languages also present challenges. I had breakfast at a chambre d'hote with a Japanese man a few years ago. He apparently decided to settle in Barcelona to study Spanish. Little did he realise he got caught up in a resurgence of Catalan so his Spanish (or as the Latin Americans would call it, Castellan) was still very rudimentary as he unknowingly learned Catalan.
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Old Dec 21, 2019 | 9:00 pm
  #48  
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Originally Posted by quirrow
It is true that some parts of Malaysia (ie. Penang) speaks Hokkien, the same can be said for parts of North Sumatra (Medan in particular) where local Chinese immigrants brought some parts of their Hokkien language that has been incorporated into Indonesian language. The reason why I cite Malaysia as having more Cantonese speakers is that HK TVB serials broadcasted in Malaysia is still dubbed in the original Cantonese, while in Singapore it has all been dubbed in Mandarin Chinese.
Not dubbed, but the original version (V.O. as the French would denote on movies) from Hong Kong. Other than for H.K., I don't think there is any production of Chinese language TV programming (other than news) anywhere outside greater China.

On that note, I've watched a couple of new series where the show is filmed twice, once in Welsh and once in English. No dubbing.

Do note that Taiwan has Min-dialect which is similar to Hokkien,
That would be because natural migration would have been just across the Straif of Fomosa. Xiamen is just on the other side.

but the lack of popular culture in media meant Hokkien is not as widely recognized compared to Cantonese by foreigners, when it is maybe spoken and understood by more Chinese.
Reason is H.K. If it wasn't for British annexation and occupation, things would have been different.

I do have to applaud the move by China to adopt a unified Chinese language and script though as that would really be confusing for business, trade and tourism if all the dialect groups in China are used.
It certainly is necessary to build a functional nation. Mos countries done the same. If it wasn't for the adoptation of standard German, a lot of Germany and Austria would also be trying communicate in dialect (I have heard from my wife's relatives that people from adjacent valleys cannot understand the dialect of the others.)
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Old Dec 21, 2019 | 9:11 pm
  #49  
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Originally Posted by YVR Cockroach
I'm illiterate but presumably it is phonetically "putonghua". Mandarin is/was also known as the equivalent of "national language" (in the RoC) and "Chinese language" (IIRC in SE Asia). I don't now what it is called in Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand and the Philippines.
Following are some of the other names used to refer to Mandarin (apologies for using simplified characters; my computer employs them by default):
中文 -- While 文 means writing, this term is widely used in a more general sense
国语 -- 国 = country, but Mainland China in this case. This term is more commonly used in places outside of Mainland China
汉语 -- 汉 = Han, as in Han Chinese
中国话 -- This one is self explanatory
北京话 -- People outside of Beijing don't use this term so often, but it remains relevant because Beijing is/was the model for current Mandarin that is spoken in Mainland China
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Old Dec 21, 2019 | 9:47 pm
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Originally Posted by YVR Cockroach
Not dubbed, but the original version (V.O. as the French would denote on movies) from Hong Kong. Other than for H.K., I don't think there is any production of Chinese language TV programming (other than news) anywhere outside greater China.
Singapore makes their own Chinese language TV series as does Malaysia I believe.

Originally Posted by moondog
Following are some of the other names used to refer to Mandarin (apologies for using simplified characters; my computer employs them by default):
中文 -- While 文 means writing, this term is widely used in a more general sense
This is probably the one used often, or at least as I know it. 文 refers more to literacy or language as 文化 translates to culture
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Old Dec 22, 2019 | 10:28 am
  #51  
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Originally Posted by A318neo
I was thinking of a new decade resolution to learn a language or improve on one. 2020 is too soon so it might have to start in mid 2020 or even late 2020. What language would you pick, assuming that English is your native language?
This is a great thread as I have had the same idea on my mind, especially as I am considering a few NGOs for my next career. It does seem that French is especially useful for many NGO careers.

That said, I think I'll procrastinate until the actual beginning of the decade, 1/1/2021.
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Old Dec 22, 2019 | 11:15 am
  #52  
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I did the "easy" route - mastering one language of each of the main western groups (Germanic, Latin, Fenno-Ugric, Slavic) makes learning or at least getting by with the second or third of the same group is easy. With my French base I get by in Italy, Catalonia, Spain even Portugal. German helps me a lot in Holland and in Scandinavia. Speaking Russian makes it easy(-er) to understand most of the other Slavic languages. With Finnish Estonian opens up as well. This of course goes for reading and to a certain extent understanding, not actually speaking, say Catalan or Serbian.

The difficult route - Eastern Asian languages- I avoided. Any Chinese (be it Mandarin or Cantonese), Japanese, Korean I know is limited to some very basic politeness - yes, no, thank you, hello, and of course the names of my favourite local dishes

Should/could I spend more time there, I feel that Bahasa Malaysia and/or Indonesia would open up quickly.
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Old Dec 22, 2019 | 11:44 am
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Originally Posted by moondog
For those of us who work in China, Mandarin is obviously useful, but I honestly find myself speaking English 70% of the time these days.
Definitely in the Bay Area. Everyone wants to use English as opportunity to practice.

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Old Dec 22, 2019 | 11:49 am
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Sheikh Yerbooty
...

PS
I can say "two beers, my friend pays" in 8 different languages, and read a restaurant menu in just as many. And that, boys and girls, is very close to being all you need.
When I need to use a toilet, am hungry or need a cold beer I can speak many languages.
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Old Nov 11, 2021 | 5:00 pm
  #55  
 
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I really like learning other languages found in fictional games and movies too. Anyone here likes High Valyrian or languages from open-world games? I think my favourites so far are Korean, Japanese, Mandarin, Italian, German, French. Well, the list goes on anyway.
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Old Nov 28, 2021 | 2:46 pm
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TLDR but I imagine others have said.... the one you NEED.

Relearning Russian after being fluent 35 years ago.
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Old Nov 29, 2021 | 10:03 pm
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Originally Posted by moondog
As you probably know, one of the many Chinese words for Mandarin is 普通话, which = common language. I think this term was coined during the 1950s around the same time simplified Chinese characters were introduced in Mainland China. Both of these measures were designed to facilitate communication between people from different regions, and also improve the literacy rate (i.e. simple characters might not be pretty, but they are easy to learn).

Switching topics to the US/Canada, when I was a kid, differences in regional accents were much more pronounced than they are these days.
Yes that is true. People used to not move 'away from home', but over the last 20 or 30 years that has changed, so the accents have become diluted.
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Old Dec 11, 2021 | 8:16 pm
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Mandarin has the most speakers, but all in one less-visited place. Spanish is your obvious choice, the most widely spoken language in the world. It is also easier to learn than other foreign languages, being very close to the original Latin.
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