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Airline Service Cutbacks -Basic Econ etc. should be illegal

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Old Dec 23, 2018 | 1:47 pm
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Originally Posted by dulciusexasperis
Now you have about 5 or 6 choices depending on the airline. Those choices exist to meet the need of different segments of the overall market. What's so hard to understand about that?
My theory (which is mine, and has my name on it) is it is because of the higher price level of airfares.

People understand this concept easily for lower-priced items. Wine is a good example. You can buy a bottle for $8 (with a screw-top lid) or pay more--many hundreds of dollars more, if you like--for a better product. When the entry-level product is a couple hundred dollars, many see it differently.

On my airline, it is usually the extra legroom seats which are booked last and/or are the seats which remain empty on a nearly full flight. Those passengers in regular economy are choosing not to spend more for the available seats with more room.

Originally Posted by Rebelyell
18 inches seems a reasonable minimum as to width.
Perhaps for new airplanes but that would make most of today's narrowbody airplanes financially unviable.

The B737, the most prolific jet airliner in the world, has seats with a width of 17.3". If you were to bring those up to 18" you'd lose 4.2" which would either make the aisle so narrow everyone would have to go down it sideways or you'd have to remove 1/6th of the seats on the airplane.
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Old Dec 23, 2018 | 10:59 pm
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Originally Posted by LarryJ
Perhaps for new airplanes but that would make most of today's narrowbody airplanes financially unviable.

The B737, the most prolific jet airliner in the world, has seats with a width of 17.3". If you were to bring those up to 18" you'd lose 4.2" which would either make the aisle so narrow everyone would have to go down it sideways or you'd have to remove 1/6th of the seats on the airplane.
Remove them! The playing field will be level for everyone.
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Old Dec 23, 2018 | 11:35 pm
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I'm fine with regulating some aspects of air travel if there's a health and safety issue. The problem is that I'm not sure 17" seat width among other things rises to that level (yet, anyway).

Really, anti-trust laws need to be updated for the modern era. I imagine some of the more recent mergers (in all industries, not just travel) would have at least gotten far more scrutiny if that happened.
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Old Dec 24, 2018 | 10:01 am
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Originally Posted by Rebelyell
Remove them! The playing field will be level for everyone.
Remove 1/6th of the seats on all 737s and those airplanes would not be viable to continue to fly.
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Old Dec 24, 2018 | 3:00 pm
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Originally Posted by LarryJ
Remove 1/6th of the seats on all 737s and those airplanes would not be viable to continue to fly.
They would still be viable to continue to fly. Its not like they would crash out of the sky and become scrap metal just because of a c. 10-17% reduction in the number of seats on a plane.

Consumer welfare is maximized when consumers can make more informed purchase decisions and do so most easily. One way for that is to have a common standard, one that could be higher than the present. .

And while a higher common minimum standard mandated by government may result in upward pressure on prices, it may also enable greater competition that actually lowers prices over time.
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Old Dec 24, 2018 | 5:14 pm
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
They would still be viable to continue to fly. Its not like they would crash out of the sky and become scrap metal just because of a c. 10-17% reduction in the number of seats on a plane.
It would not be financially viable to fly with 17% fewer seats.
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Old Dec 24, 2018 | 5:24 pm
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Originally Posted by LarryJ
It would not be financially viable to fly with 17% fewer seats.
They may still be financially viable enough, and Id more than welcome to see what happens in the aftermath of instituting a more consumer-friendly mandate on higher minimum seating comfort standards and other inclusions for all US flight passengers.

When major airline industry cartel kingpins say or act as if passenger demand is highly inelastic, then lets just see how inelastic it is in the aftermath of mandating things like minimum seat width, seat bottom size, leg space and so on.
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Old Dec 24, 2018 | 9:27 pm
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To those who are clamoring for government regulation of comfort standards, I have a question: What on earth would lead you to believe that the US government (left/right/center/doesn't matter who is in charge) would somehow manage to get THIS right?

This is the same government that can't stop leaking radioactive material into the groundwater (and hence, the Columbia River) at Hanford. The same government who was ridiculed for years for their inability to source a hammer for less than $700 and toilet seats for less than $2k. The same government that in general, isn't uniquely qualified to investigate anything more complicated than a knock at the door.

Etc, etc, AND etc.

Is there anything more than wishful thinking behind the notion that they can get this one thing right?
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Old Dec 24, 2018 | 9:32 pm
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Originally Posted by GUWonder


They may still be financially viable enough, and I’d more than welcome to see what happens in the aftermath of instituting a more consumer-friendly mandate on higher minimum seating comfort standards and other inclusions for all US flight passengers.

When major airline industry cartel kingpins say or act as if passenger demand is highly inelastic, then let’s just see how inelastic it is in the aftermath of mandating things like minimum seat width, seat bottom size, leg space and so on.
With of course increased cost. The success of LCCs like Spirit and Ryanair and Easyjet should provide ample evidence that what most (or enough) passengers want is the cheapest possible price. For an example from the other direction - look what happened to AA's "More room in Coach".

Also, you are demanding the airlines be required to assume the risk in this....YOU may welcome the results of seeing what happens if such things were mandated.... but what if you are wrong, demand IS indeed inelastic, and the airlines lose a whole bunch of money on your idea?
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Old Dec 25, 2018 | 3:59 am
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Originally Posted by trooper
With of course increased cost. The success of LCCs like Spirit and Ryanair and Easyjet should provide ample evidence that what most (or enough) passengers want is the cheapest possible price. For an example from the other direction - look what happened to AA's "More room in Coach".

Also, you are demanding the airlines be required to assume the risk in this....YOU may welcome the results of seeing what happens if such things were mandated.... but what if you are wrong, demand IS indeed inelastic, and the airlines lose a whole bunch of money on your idea?
AAs MRTC wasnt a mandated minimum standard to facilitate easier ability for consumers to compare across airlines when seeking to buy a baseline service in the market, so bringing it up is bringing up an airline marketing gimmick.

What most US passenger seem to want is the best value that money can provide, for I am sure that they mostly value their life and limbs even if the airlines were allowed even more to cut back on all health and safety standards and claimed to be doing so to give the cheapest possible price. Purchase decisions are about utility-maximization, not cheapest possible price.

Airlines already assume some regulatory risk for participation in the market like they do, so adjusting their regulatory risk to a higher standard for consumers health, safety and comfort is fine by me. And the risk of business is that businesses can lose money in the face of many things, so I say no big deal if the airlines face a risk of higher costs in this regard too. Government shouldnt exist to secure the profits of airlines; nor should government insulate airlines from market and regulatory risk; and so I say bring it on. The airline cartel industry kingpins and their free-riding competitors have been coddled too much and for too long by government already, and the arrival of a more level playing field for consumers is long over due.

I do have to wonder if you understand what is meant by saying the demand is indeed inelastic. It would actually undercut your airline company-defending argument seeking to maximize airline profits, if I were wrong.

Last edited by GUWonder; Dec 25, 2018 at 4:07 am
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Old Dec 25, 2018 | 9:41 am
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
They may still be financially viable enough
I disagree. But, even if you're right, the planes are full (nearly 90% load factors) and the airports are at, or over, capacity. Who doesn't get to go?
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Old Dec 25, 2018 | 2:33 pm
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Originally Posted by LarryJ
I disagree. But, even if you're right, the planes are full (nearly 90% load factors) and the airports are at, or over, capacity. Who doesn't get to go?
Mostly the same people who dont get to go already.

And when demand is high, there may even be new entrants and other expansion, in terms of airlines and airports, to get in on the business for the same and others.

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Old Dec 25, 2018 | 6:26 pm
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
Mostly the same people who don’t get to go already.
These are the people who are already going who wouldn't be able to go with 17% fewer narrowbody seats. If they already aren't going then a reduction is seats wouldn't affect them.

Last edited by LarryJ; Dec 25, 2018 at 11:38 pm
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Old Dec 25, 2018 | 10:26 pm
  #59  
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Originally Posted by NYCommuter
What should be done is to truly have a free market in aviation, by having stronger antitrust laws and enforcement. Having more competition in the aviation industry would result in lots of customer benefits.
I don't think that is the answer. The airline industry, as a whole, is hugely unprofitable. It's one of the few industries that has basically not made a profit ever since it was established. Mergers may reduce competition, but they are preferable to bankruptcies, which were a regular occurrence in the industry up until the most recent round of mergers. Profit margins in the aviation industry are small enough that it is unlikely that more competition would benefit customers in any way. In fact, it might accelerate the race to the bottom as smaller airlines struggled to survive.
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Old Dec 26, 2018 | 1:46 am
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Originally Posted by LarryJ
These are the people who are already going who wouldn't be able to go with 17% fewer narrowbody seats. If they already aren't going then a reduction is seats wouldn't affect them.
Even with up to 17% fewer seats on a plane of some sort, most of the people flying today would still fly and most of the people not flying today still wouldnt fly. A lot of it comes down to the elasticity of demand and how open and competitive the supply side of the market is.

A reduction or increase in seats available for sale may affect people who arent flying today and it may affect people who are flying today.
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