SeaHawg

hotelboy

Umm...not sure where to begin on this one...but lets start back at your high school economics class and that we live in a free market economy and the free market is okay with being nickeled and dimed until the airlines get to a further point and the free makert says enough is enough. At that point things will change. If you want an all inclusive price you can still get it. It is called flying a premium cabin.

Yoshi212

As much as I hate over governing and most of what the OP said makes me want to do a Robert Downey Jr eye roll (look up the gif if you don't already know it) there is some merit to a minimum standard action by the DOT and corresponding government bodies to prevent airlines from going full capitalist monster. Basic Economy isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's a deep discount product with very limited options and many restrictions. If it doesn't fit for you don't buy it.

I personally avoid flying certain airlines and certain aircraft because of passenger comfort. Think Spirit airlines and the CRJ-200 as examples of what I am speaking.

But, having a minimum service standard of seat pitch & width, a carry-on item with dimensions that can't be mistaken for a checked bag and access to "unlimited" water isn't a bad idea. Legislating that they must provide me with a choice of each a ginger ale, a cola, a diet cola, 1 whiskey, 1 whisky, 1 vodka and one light beer is a waste of time, is offensive to free markets and will only be met with lots of lobbying against it.

trooper

And what "minimum standard of seat pitch and width" do you think would be imposed by regulation, were it to occur? 36-38"/18" as the OP thinks should be mandated? LOL.

Yoshi212

That's where things can get sticky. Doing it scientifically based on the "average" BMI or other statistical form of measuring what amount of space will accommodate a body seems the logical way. I know that B6's economy I will sit comfortably in any window or aisle seat but avoid middle seats as I am very broad and don't want to invade my seatmate's area if avoidable. I remember flying Cross Air to visit my brother in Italy and the middle section I believe wad 4 across and I was stuck between two very large guys and not being a midget myself I had to sit with one arm in front and the other behind me in a twisted position. the FA took pity on me and precut my meal so I could eat it with a single hand. Lufthansa Y seats on their A320 family & 747-8i are torture to me but for some reason their ERJ-190s I'm fine for legroom and AS's 737 in regular economy over 3 hours would be cramped particularly when ti comes to seat pitch/legroom.
Essentially, to a point the regulation would evaluate what exists in the market and make the average +/- a bit and go from there. All existing craft would be grandfathered but ideally it would keep things from going too far.

davem4

People could also follow scientific advice and lose weight.

ilcannone

This. This is what the vast majority of FT members SERIOUSLY need to remind themselves of before complaining about trivial issues or expecting everything for themselves.

daloosh

Those were the days, wearing a suit and breathing smoke! Comedy aside, BE is a terrible thing, especially with the new Delta BE awards, you know it's going to get worse.

dulciusexasperis

The people get what the people deserve. The problem is that unfortunately when it comes to pubic transportation, ALL of the people get what only SOME of the people want, the some just happen to be the majority.

Unfortunately, a lot of people are willing to accept almost anything except perhaps 'standing room only' tickets, if it means they can go on their annual vacation to wherever. So an airline can fill Economy with those people and those who want a bit more space etc. have no choice but to accept that and realize that flying Economy is simply not an option for them. I gave up on flying Economy years ago.

I suppose there are 2 ways to look at it. Go back to a decent amount of space, ammenities included, etc. as in the past for Economy, but at a higher price or pay the price you need to pay to get what Economy used to get and fly in a more premium cabin. What is not going to happen is that seat space will get bigger and everyone will then pay more to fly in the way the OP, I and others want to fly. The airlines are simply responding to demand and the demand is for cheap seats. You can't have cheap seats and better service at the same time. The equation has to balance or a company goes out of business. Price minus cost equals profit.

Flying used to be something that not everyone could afford to do and not everyone thought they should be able to afford to do. It's that second part that causes the problem. Putting it bluntly, if poor people realized they were poor and didn't try to buy seats on a plane, airlines would have no one to sell 30" pitch and 17" wide seats to. But as long as those people are willing to pay for those seats, the airline will sell them, why wouldn't they? It is the market (the public) that creates demand, not the airlines. The airlines simply follow demand.

Flying today is simply a bus with wings and our expectations should start from that point of fact. If I can afford to own a car and not have to share space with everyone else, I buy a car and leave riding the bus to the poorer people. At least with flying, if I can't afford my own jet, I can pay more and sit in the bigger seats at the front of the plane, not in the back with the poor people.

SoroSuub1

If we're going back to the 70's I'd like to bring my onboard wifi....

Also, what would an inflation-adjusted fare from this era look like in today's dollars?

dulciusexasperis

Flying has never been cheaper in inflation adjusted figures SoroSuub1.
https://www.theatlantic.com/business...oticed/273506/

That's the problem. You cannot lower prices and provide the same service while maintaining the same profit margin. Price minus cost equals profit always has to balance. So if prices are down as they are, what you get for the price you pay must go down unless you are willing to reduce profits. That is what has happened and the OP is lamenting. I happen to agree with the OP but I also happen to realize what has happened and have adjusted my expectations accordingly. I just pay what I need to pay to get the product I want to have.

The issue is when people want the product but don't want to pay for it and instead decide to complain about the product they get for the price they are willing to pay.

Proudelitist

You don't buy rights. You are endowed them by birth and by the societal agreement that basic human needs be met. But you don't have a right to any specific mode of delivery or specific means of expressing or engaging in these rights. You have a right to travel, although no mode is specified...it doesn't mean you have a righ to drive, fly, or ride a bus. You have a right to bear arms, although that doesn't necessarily mean guns, you have a right to free speech, although that doesn't mean a publisher has to publish your manuscript.

Airlines have the legal right to kick you off, or deny you boarding. That is not a denial of your rights to freedom of movement..you can still try to go whereever you are going..just not on their plane. There is no violation of rights when you are not permitted to fly.

kbooks66

I initially had issues with basic economy and saw it as a money grab by the airlines. However, I am now a fan of it; traveling has never been cheaper. You book flights from the west coast to europe in BE for the low 300s on a regular basis and domestic flights have definitely reduced in price. While I do agree that the ever shrinking seat is an issue, and if it shrinks even more there will be serious issues flying economy I think the industry is fine as is. There are options that people can get what they want. Personally I rarely check a bag, so why should I pay for a check bag that is built into the price, I also care very little about seat assignment as long as I get from point A to Point B.

I feel like this post while has good points has missed the mark and isn't aware about what BE has done for the price of tickets.

chgoeditor

OP, I seem to remember you are or once were a cruise travel agent. How would you feel if the government said, "All cruise travel agents must have a physical office that allows at least 100 sq feet per employee, you must have a Herman Miller Aeron chair for each employee and two HM Aeron chairs at each employee's desk solely for use by clients. All clients must be welcomed by bagpipers and offered green tea served in a traditional Japanese tea ceremony before any business is conducted. You're also expected to have a full bar and full pantry to offer clients any refreshments that they might desire, and should have free wifi with minimum speeds of 100 gbps with sufficient bandwidth to accommodate 100 people concurrently even if you only have room for 5 people in your office at any one time. Clients may only be charged a flat fee regardless of the scope of the work involved or the number of changes they'd like to make to their travel plans. And any tickets must be delivered to them by nothing slower than second-day air."

LTBoston

For some reason, every time I see the thread title I read it as "Bacon, et al, should be illegal." And I'm all, NO WAY.