US Government Regulation of Seat Pitch?
Nov 1, 2018, 4:07 pm
#76
Join Date: Sep 2013
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American, Delta, and United all offer economy seats with additional legroom for purchase. On United, roughly 25% to 35% of the economy seats have this extra legroom but those seats are usually the last to be selected. I frequently see seat maps with full regular economy sections and numerous available seats in Economy Plus. Those extra legroom seats were available to every passenger with a pre-assigned seat in regular economy but they preferred to give up the legroom in order to save money. That is the free market at work.
For flight over 3 hours, they risk DVT life threatening emergency. Because "they" chose to have cheaper flight, up to 5% of population cannot fit or has to shell $300 roundtrip for medium lenth domestic flight. Free market is great if you're median target group I guess.
Nov 1, 2018, 11:22 pm
#77
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"They" are the passengers who have seat assignments in regular economy when seats are still available in Economy Plus.
On United, at least, it is rare for the last available economy seats to be anything other than Economy Plus seats. That may not be true at AAL and DAL as their extra legroom sections are a smaller percentage of the total economy seats.
On United, at least, it is rare for the last available economy seats to be anything other than Economy Plus seats. That may not be true at AAL and DAL as their extra legroom sections are a smaller percentage of the total economy seats.
Nov 2, 2018, 8:01 am
#78
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 383
I somewhat mind that airline seats are almost impossible for me to fit in because of my height, but probably not enough to want to make it a law. I always purchase extra legroom seats for this reason.
What infuriates me is that an airline can tell me "tough luck your seat is gone now you can seat in an impossibly small seat or give up on your flight". If I book a seat with specific characteristics for reasons outside my control, and the airline decides to not honor it, I am screwed.
What infuriates me is that an airline can tell me "tough luck your seat is gone now you can seat in an impossibly small seat or give up on your flight". If I book a seat with specific characteristics for reasons outside my control, and the airline decides to not honor it, I am screwed.
Nov 2, 2018, 10:37 am
#79
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,664
"They" are the passengers who have seat assignments in regular economy when seats are still available in Economy Plus.
On United, at least, it is rare for the last available economy seats to be anything other than Economy Plus seats. That may not be true at AAL and DAL as their extra legroom sections are a smaller percentage of the total economy seats.
On United, at least, it is rare for the last available economy seats to be anything other than Economy Plus seats. That may not be true at AAL and DAL as their extra legroom sections are a smaller percentage of the total economy seats.
Nov 3, 2018, 10:39 pm
#80
Join Date: Sep 2013
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"They" are the passengers who have seat assignments in regular economy when seats are still available in Economy Plus.
On United, at least, it is rare for the last available economy seats to be anything other than Economy Plus seats. That may not be true at AAL and DAL as their extra legroom sections are a smaller percentage of the total economy seats.
On United, at least, it is rare for the last available economy seats to be anything other than Economy Plus seats. That may not be true at AAL and DAL as their extra legroom sections are a smaller percentage of the total economy seats.
If people had a choice of Emirates, Eurowings, InterJet and United for a flight between Chicago and New York, do you think they would choose the Economy seat they cannot fit? Europe is geographically bigger than USA and Alaska, how come their flights are constantly so cheap compared to big 3 in US? If flight between city pair is constantly $500 in US, of course people will pick the freaking basic economy, but they don't have a choice. They are squeezed by cartel and being shamed as nickle and diming peasants who choose not to travel comfortably. Disgusting.
Nov 4, 2018, 11:18 am
#81
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There are six carriers operating nonstop between Chicago and NYC, the route you chose as your example, with round-trips approximately a month from now ranging from $110-$219.
Where's the beef?
Where's the beef?
Nov 4, 2018, 1:00 pm
#82
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: BNA
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I don't understand your point.
I'm talking about flights with nearly full regular economy sections while plenty of seats with additional legroom remain available. The passengers in regular economy are not getting the extra legroom seats for free and they are choosing to stay where they are over paying more for more room. The people who get extra legroom for free are already seated there.
I just checked a flight from ORD to PHX. The extra legroom seat upcharge ranged from $32 to $83. There were even some aisle/window seats at the lowest $32 price.
I'm talking about flights with nearly full regular economy sections while plenty of seats with additional legroom remain available. The passengers in regular economy are not getting the extra legroom seats for free and they are choosing to stay where they are over paying more for more room. The people who get extra legroom for free are already seated there.
I just checked a flight from ORD to PHX. The extra legroom seat upcharge ranged from $32 to $83. There were even some aisle/window seats at the lowest $32 price.
Nov 4, 2018, 2:29 pm
#83
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 6,338
This is some Supply side Jesus stuff. They, as in oligopolistic cartel decided to milk their tens of billions of profits even more and present a false choice to customer to whom they shift a blame through ideologues like you.
If people had a choice of Emirates, Eurowings, InterJet and United for a flight between Chicago and New York, do you think they would choose the Economy seat they cannot fit? Europe is geographically bigger than USA and Alaska, how come their flights are constantly so cheap compared to big 3 in US? If flight between city pair is constantly $500 in US, of course people will pick the freaking basic economy, but they don't have a choice. They are squeezed by cartel and being shamed as nickle and diming peasants who choose not to travel comfortably. Disgusting.
If people had a choice of Emirates, Eurowings, InterJet and United for a flight between Chicago and New York, do you think they would choose the Economy seat they cannot fit? Europe is geographically bigger than USA and Alaska, how come their flights are constantly so cheap compared to big 3 in US? If flight between city pair is constantly $500 in US, of course people will pick the freaking basic economy, but they don't have a choice. They are squeezed by cartel and being shamed as nickle and diming peasants who choose not to travel comfortably. Disgusting.
And where do you get this "constantly so cheap" idea?. I just put in a random date next year for both LAX-ORD and LHR-MOW (both in the 1500-1700 mile range) LAX-ORD non stop on Alaskan was $AUD 206..for the same date the cheapest non-stop LHR-MOW was AUD$411.... Yes..you could get there cheaper on a 1 stop... AUD$160.. but it would take 8 hours and go via Athens! CONSTANTLY cheaper??? When I tried to book a trip from ARN-LON last year the only reasonable price I could find was on Norwegian.... and I wouldn't hold them up as paragons of extra space in Y!
Last edited by trooper; Nov 4, 2018 at 2:39 pm
Nov 5, 2018, 8:17 am
#84
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The reality of the "lack of competition" false premise is that air fares in the US are, on average, cheaper today than they were in 1984, at the time of the enactment of the ADA, when adjusted for cost-of-living / inflation. Doesn't mean that there aren't some occasional outliers. But, it does mean that the number of carriers is a red herring.
If there were a market for four-class widebody service with suites for F on the micro-hop from NYC-CHI, someone would offer it. But, there is not, so it's not offered. Instead, consumers choose cheaper fares with a lousier soft product.
If there were a market for four-class widebody service with suites for F on the micro-hop from NYC-CHI, someone would offer it. But, there is not, so it's not offered. Instead, consumers choose cheaper fares with a lousier soft product.
Nov 5, 2018, 8:26 am
#85
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: London
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The reality of the "lack of competition" false premise is that air fares in the US are, on average, cheaper today than they were in 1984, at the time of the enactment of the ADA, when adjusted for cost-of-living / inflation. Doesn't mean that there aren't some occasional outliers. But, it does mean that the number of carriers is a red herring.
Nov 5, 2018, 11:28 pm
#86
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 6,338
If the article from The Atlantic (Feb 28 2013) was correct - about how airfares fell 50% in 30 years..then I would suggest the answer would still be yes. Surface-area-per-pax (interesting measure that!) has NOT decreased by half!
Nov 5, 2018, 11:42 pm
#87
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 6,338
Whether they were serious ideas or not they were proposed which makes me think that the airlines are doing everything they can to squeeze the last nickle out of revenue. They have just about exhausted anything that they can make you pay extra for. So, now their going off the deep end with their schemes. I hope that the FAA rules that they have to provide a modicome of comfort for the 98% of their customers that fly cattle class and that is the same pitch as most of the Asian airlines have which is 34 inches. If the Asian airlines can do it so can every other airline. They don't want to because they really don't give a darn about that 98%.
The other factor of course is the seat design. An old thick backed seat will give less useable space than a modern thin back one.....
Dec 10, 2018, 9:40 pm
#88
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Dec 10, 2018, 9:47 pm
#89
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I don't believe that seat size should be regulated. I do believe that it should be revealed. Perhaps require that any airline ad specify the minimum seat size for what it's advertising (e.g. if it's advertising a low fare from NYC-LAX, it must include the minimum seat size for any seat at that fare). Let *knowledgeable* customers decide.
Years ago airlines advertised fares bogusly ("one way based on a round trip, taxes and fees additional"). That was stopped by law. (I'd love to see the same done to hotels now, but that's a different issue.)
Years ago airlines advertised fares bogusly ("one way based on a round trip, taxes and fees additional"). That was stopped by law. (I'd love to see the same done to hotels now, but that's a different issue.)
Dec 12, 2018, 1:32 am
#90
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I don't believe that seat size should be regulated. I do believe that it should be revealed. Perhaps require that any airline ad specify the minimum seat size for what it's advertising (e.g. if it's advertising a low fare from NYC-LAX, it must include the minimum seat size for any seat at that fare). Let *knowledgeable* customers decide.
Years ago airlines advertised fares bogusly ("one way based on a round trip, taxes and fees additional"). That was stopped by law. (I'd love to see the same done to hotels now, but that's a different issue.)
Years ago airlines advertised fares bogusly ("one way based on a round trip, taxes and fees additional"). That was stopped by law. (I'd love to see the same done to hotels now, but that's a different issue.)
I would welcome more minimum comfort and safety standard regulations applicable to airlines, and that should include mandated minimum requirements to seat bottom dimensions, leg space, seat recline, space between seats, widths of seat, width of armrests, movability of armrests, and so on. The government enabling better ability for consumers to engage in comparison shopping is important, but so are better minimum standards applicable to flight seating, lavatories as aisle space. Once the passengers comfort/safety/security baseline is raised, the airlines’ “race to the bottom” won’t only be undermined, it will also enable consumers to shop knowing better the basics of what the airline is selling them and to engage more easily in better comparison shopping upon the basics alone.
It’s been shown that rats become much more aggressive when subjected to overcrowding. I doubt passengers become less aggressive due to the kind of plane overcrowding foisted upon passengers by the airlines. Regulations are part and parcel of civilization. It’s not too late to try to make air travel more civilized.