US Government Regulation of Seat Pitch?
#16
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 413
Keep in mind, for those who think that seat pitch would really slow down an evacuation: the bottleneck is the aisle and exits. Just like in a regular deplaning, the thing that takes time is not getting out of the row - it's waiting for the people in the aisle to make space for you to get out of the row.
Now, on the other hand, smaller pitch = more pax per plane = slower evacuation. But let's say the airline added more exits in order to shrink seat pitch even more - I'm not sure you would be happy then either.
All that is to say, I don't think FAA should be regulating seat pitch directly, as long as airlines comply with evacuation times.
Now, on the other hand, smaller pitch = more pax per plane = slower evacuation. But let's say the airline added more exits in order to shrink seat pitch even more - I'm not sure you would be happy then either.
All that is to say, I don't think FAA should be regulating seat pitch directly, as long as airlines comply with evacuation times.
#17
Moderator: Manufactured Spending
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 6,580
I am a bit conflicted on this issue. I believe that in general, the free market works best. As an example, several airlines have premium economy options with more leg room at fairly minimal cost. But on the other hand, capitalism cannot be unrestrained either. At this point, the airlines are basically an oligopoly, so they have little need to worry about quality of service. In general, an oligopoly/monopoly needs to be regulated in order to maintain standards.
I think the airlines brought this upon themselves. They were too greedy. They milked the passengers for everything they could, and finally, they reached a tipping point where enough people were upset that the government decided to step in.
1. I think the government should do a study on this, and determine if a minimum pitch would improve public health. I'm not an expert, but I believe there are some medical conditions that could be exacerbated by lack of space, such as DVT.
2. With regard to distortions, I can't think of any obvious loopholes in such a regulation. The only issue might be international routes. US carriers are going to be upset if they have to comply with these regulations and their foreign competitors on the same routes don't.
3. As I said, I think there should be a study done. But barring that, I think that the current lowest pitch on the ULCCs might be a good limit. That way, no airline has to retrofit their aircraft, but it prevents any further shrinking.
I think the airlines brought this upon themselves. They were too greedy. They milked the passengers for everything they could, and finally, they reached a tipping point where enough people were upset that the government decided to step in.
1. I think the government should do a study on this, and determine if a minimum pitch would improve public health. I'm not an expert, but I believe there are some medical conditions that could be exacerbated by lack of space, such as DVT.
2. With regard to distortions, I can't think of any obvious loopholes in such a regulation. The only issue might be international routes. US carriers are going to be upset if they have to comply with these regulations and their foreign competitors on the same routes don't.
3. As I said, I think there should be a study done. But barring that, I think that the current lowest pitch on the ULCCs might be a good limit. That way, no airline has to retrofit their aircraft, but it prevents any further shrinking.
#18
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: LAN
Programs: DL Skymiles, AF/KL Flying Blue
Posts: 304
Wow, well I guess that establishes the maximalist position
Seems odd to me that you seem to say you would only support a limit if it required actual pitch increases in the fleet. I don't see why anyone who supported that wouldn't also support a regulation that simply kept pitch from going even lower.
Seems odd to me that you seem to say you would only support a limit if it required actual pitch increases in the fleet. I don't see why anyone who supported that wouldn't also support a regulation that simply kept pitch from going even lower.
This seems particularly harmful to me. New routes are almost by definition risky and less likely to be profitable to the airline; they are also often served by smaller frames, at least initially. Telling an airline that if they want to open up a new route they have to use a newer or more recently retrofitted plane strikes me as a great way to slow down route network growth. If I'm in a city that lacks service, or is served by only one or two carriers, I absolutely would want other carriers to have the lowest barriers to entry possible. Oh, wait, I am in a city with two carriers, and I do want to see low barriers!
Still, I see potential value in it. My intent with it was primarily to tell airlines that modifying their fleet to be in compliance with the new pitch regulations is important, and that it's something they need to start working on immediately. If they want to continue growing, the retrofitting of the fleet needs to be an immediate part of that growth plan. I suspect that would have a side effect of speaking to your second item - how to minimize disruption. If there isn't a strong incentive to retrofit the fleet starting very soon, airlines will tend to put it all off until the 11th hour. Then you've got all airlines competing for maintenance facilities at the same time, airlines taking a large percentage of their fleet out of service at the same time, etc. This way, if an airline wants to grow, unless they decide to shuffle aircraft already in compliance to their new routes, they would have to start modifying their planes before they could launch the new routes.
#20
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington, DC, USA
Programs: UA MM, MB LifeTit
Posts: 1,830
Why limit this to pitch? What about seat width? Minimum allowable recline, cushioning, and lumbar support. The bathrooms are too small. Meals on all flights over two hours, with detailed caloric information...
In other words, this is not the government's business.
In other words, this is not the government's business.
#21
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 33
Determining minimums from a safety/evacuation view is clearly the government business. There is not a pricing issue on safety.
From a comfort view, government regulation would reduce product/airline differentiation and pricing. Larger pitch can be sold for a higher fare. But the view that airlines are an oligopoly/near monopoly has value as well.
From a comfort view, government regulation would reduce product/airline differentiation and pricing. Larger pitch can be sold for a higher fare. But the view that airlines are an oligopoly/near monopoly has value as well.
#22
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: DCA
Programs: Delta Gold
Posts: 158
In the recent FAA Reauthorization bill which was signed into law earlier this month, Congress included a section which requires DOT to put out regulations on minimum seat dimensions. The relevent section is below:
SEC. 577. Minimum dimensions for passenger seats.(a) In general.—Not later than 1 year after the date of enactment of this Act, and after providing notice and an opportunity for comment, the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration shall issue regulations that establish minimum dimensions for passenger seats on aircraft operated by air carriers in interstate air transportation or intrastate air transportation, including minimums for seat pitch, width, and length, and that are necessary for the safety of passengers.
(b) Definitions.—The definitions contained in section 40102(a) of title 49, United States Code, apply to this section.
Link to the full bill
SEC. 577. Minimum dimensions for passenger seats.
(b) Definitions.—The definitions contained in section 40102(a) of title 49, United States Code, apply to this section.
Link to the full bill
#23
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: COU
Programs: AA EXP, Bonvoy Ambassador, Hertz PC
Posts: 499
Determining minimums from a safety/evacuation view is clearly the government business. There is not a pricing issue on safety.
From a comfort view, government regulation would reduce product/airline differentiation and pricing. Larger pitch can be sold for a higher fare. But the view that airlines are an oligopoly/near monopoly has value as well.
From a comfort view, government regulation would reduce product/airline differentiation and pricing. Larger pitch can be sold for a higher fare. But the view that airlines are an oligopoly/near monopoly has value as well.
#24
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: COU
Programs: AA EXP, Bonvoy Ambassador, Hertz PC
Posts: 499
Here's an FAA advisory circular which describes procedures for conducting an evacuation test.
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/..._25.803-1A.pdf
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/..._25.803-1A.pdf
I only scanned most of it, but did read the parts about passenger selection, informing passengers, and injury-avoidance reasonably closely. Quick thoughts:
1. It seems to me like they made pretty reasonable decisions on procedure given the inherent tradeoff: you want a good test, but you really, really don't want to hurt your subjects either. So they give them gloves and things like that.
2. It definitely reads like they're pulling randoms out of an airport, but that doesn't really make a lot of sense, right? They have to be recruiting somehow, and the way that's sort of undefined makes me wonder how representative their subjects are.
3. They do specify age/gender splits, so they're thinking about the problem.
4. No matter what they do, these subjects know they're in a test, and that whatever happens on the plane isn't actually a life-threatening situation. As such, it can't possibly model the true panic of a real evacuation. I think this probably floods all other considerations as to validity.
5. The analysis section was really interesting; as somebody above said it is in fact acceptable in some circumstances to just model the evacuation instead of performing it. I don't think I'm qualified to comment on how valid or not their guidelines on that are.
Anyway, cool stuff Larry, thanks!
#25
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: COU
Programs: AA EXP, Bonvoy Ambassador, Hertz PC
Posts: 499
In the recent FAA Reauthorization bill which was signed into law earlier this month, Congress included a section which requires DOT to put out regulations on minimum seat dimensions. The relevent section is below:
SEC. 577. Minimum dimensions for passenger seats.(a) In general.—Not later than 1 year after the date of enactment of this Act, and after providing notice and an opportunity for comment, the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration shall issue regulations that establish minimum dimensions for passenger seats on aircraft operated by air carriers in interstate air transportation or intrastate air transportation, including minimums for seat pitch, width, and length, and that are necessary for the safety of passengers.
(b) Definitions.—The definitions contained in section 40102(a) of title 49, United States Code, apply to this section.
Link to the full bill
SEC. 577. Minimum dimensions for passenger seats.
(b) Definitions.—The definitions contained in section 40102(a) of title 49, United States Code, apply to this section.
Link to the full bill
I like that they made it the broader "seat dimensions" than pitch specifically, for the reasons outlined above. As I think is clear from my posts, I don't have super strong opinions on what they should do. But I'll be interested to see.
#26
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Pittsburgh
Programs: MR/SPG LT Titanium, AA LT PLT, UA SLV, Avis PreferredPlus
Posts: 31,009
So, let me clarify... If we're going to set the minimum at whatever the least pitch in the U.S. already is today, that won't do us any good. On the contrary, it would be detrimental. Every airline will know what they can get away with legally now, and will begin to regress toward that minimum pitch. I.e., if Spirit is given the legal thumbs up, we're all screwed.
Why does the government have a role in the specifications of a product being sold beyond safety? Seems like getting the FDA involved in assuring only food that tastes good is approved for sale.
What would airlines think they can "get away with"? There's no regulation today - what's been stopping them over the last decade?
#27
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: LAN
Programs: DL Skymiles, AF/KL Flying Blue
Posts: 304
Do you believe the reason the government should be involved in setting seat pitch is to assure passenger comfort? That seems to be what you're saying.
Why does the government have a role in the specifications of a product being sold beyond safety? Seems like getting the FDA involved in assuring only food that tastes good is approved for sale.
What would airlines think they can "get away with"? There's no regulation today - what's been stopping them over the last decade?
Why does the government have a role in the specifications of a product being sold beyond safety? Seems like getting the FDA involved in assuring only food that tastes good is approved for sale.
What would airlines think they can "get away with"? There's no regulation today - what's been stopping them over the last decade?
As for what's stopping an airline from going lower today, I believe it's a combination of two things:
- The obvious - public opinion, and
- The fear that regulators will establish a minimum pitch greater than what an airline would set their pitch at, and the corresponding fear of having to modify their fleet to comply.
#29
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,271
https://www.travelandleisure.com/tra...lane-emergency
Then there are the disabled, parents with small children etc. who simply are going to be slower during an evacuation. How many of them are included when they do a test?
The tests are a joke in my opinion. At best they test 'best possible time', not 'most likely time' to evacuate.