sdsearch

well, given Air Berlin's current bankruptcy proceedings (and likely breakup), you could just as easily ask the opposite question:

How much longer can European airlines survive such insanely low intra-Europe prices?

Just because you like low prices doesn't mean a merchant can survive forever on the prices you'd prefer.

If you're not looking at it from the business perspective, how can you know that it's not the European prices that are too low (for sustainability) rather than the US prices being too high?

CPRich

Buying a ticket between two cities not in the US won't get you on a flight between US cities - cabotage restrictions have nothing to do with it. Buying tickets between any 2 cities in the world won't get you on a different flight anywhere else - and that's the point. Pricing of 1 city pair has nothing to do with pricing of another city pair, regardless of regulations or location. Cheap flights in the EU have nothing to do with, and will not make US airlines "have to cut" any, US prices.

CPRich

I don't know where you're located, but I can fly PIT to London and back next week for

Dr. HFH

Huh? No domestic cargo?

DavidDTW

I guess expensive domestic fares depend on where you need to go. In the last month I have bought advance purchase fares on AA for DTW-MIA and ORD-LAX both for $99 round trip. YMMV

jrl767

fixed that for you

Enigma368

Unlike US airlines, many of which filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in the past 15 years? Or gone bust, like TWA.

Using the fact of one airline going bust in Europe and then shouting "see, look it doesn't work" seems a bit simplistic. Many(most?) airlines in Europe are posting massive profits. Sustainability is a valid question but you need more of an argument than that. From everything I have read, airline market liberalisation in Europe is roundly seen as having been massively successful.

BearX220

Rock-bottom fares like this are exponents of yield management. Obviously not every seat to EDI goes for $109, but some do, and DY buys a lot of attention / awareness that way.

Watch EI. I often see ORD-DUB/LHR/etc. for $550 or so.

Short of reconstituting the CAB, that's the only force that will exert downward pressure on prices. I often see outraged FTers complaining about airfares and wailing, "I guess they're only in it for the money!" Show me the business that isn't.

Domestic fare-shopping is a keno game anyway. Last month I got my wife a night-before OW fare ORD-DCA for $80 and a return flight for $41. Today all advance weekend RTs are $325+. The scene is not consistently "insane."

mapleg

I was very unpleasantly surprised when I looked up flight price ORD to Rapid City.

I could fly Toronto to Shanghai direct for prices cheaper than they sometimes want for Toronto to Cleveland or Toronto to Rochester NY

fredman

First, keep in mind a lot of readers here are new and don't know what 'LCC' or 'EI' mean. LCC - Low Cost Carrier, EI - Aer Lingus,
Second, that does explain it - the flights you are talking about originate from mainly NY or LA, but I'll say 'most' people flying are not all from NY or LA.
I realize you (here) cannot price-shop from, say, Kansas City, Denver, Minneapolis or even Chicago, that's the difference between a 'cheap faire to Europe', or not.
Apparently that is where the US carriers are 'making their money', a cheap flight to Europe from LAX or JFK is one thing, but GETTING TO LAX or JFK is quite another.

GUWonder

Cabotage restrictions do have to do with it. Without the cabotage restrictions, Mexican or Canadian (and even other non-US) carriers could sell tickets for service between US cities by offering transits via non-US airports. Without the "Buy America" restrictions, non-US carriers would get a bigger piece of the lucrative government/government contractor travel pie. Without the US's foreign ownership and foreign staffing restrictions, non-US carries could increase competition in the US.

All of these are things the airline industry's non-consumer stakeholders are opposed to allowing.

fredman

You mean there are not enough US airlines operating in the US to
have a competition amongst themselves?
American - Delta - Southwest - Frontier - United, to name a few?

The simple 'fact' is that it is just collusion to keep prices up, because I won't
believe for a second they all seem to raise or lower prices at seemingly the
same time by happenstance.

BearX220

I'm writing what follows without abbreviations / acronyms as you said they were throwing you in some cases.

There are eleven serious airlines in the US, which you would think means serious competition. But it usually doesn't.

We have only three true network airlines in the US that operate multiple hubs, service to all principal cities, plus international long-haul routes: United, Delta, and American. But even these three compete head-to-head in only a few markets. Enter a random US city pair in Kayak and you are likely to see just one or two of them offering nonstop service. Some small stations are served by only one airline exploiting a monopoly.

(Furthermore, one or another of the three network carriers have claimed most top US cities as sole-airline fortress hubs: Delta owns Minneapolis and Atlanta; American owns Philadelphia, Miami, and Phoenix; United owns Houston; etc. Nonstop fares out of fortress hubs are usually artificially high because of lack of competition.)

We have four second-tier carriers in the US -- JetBlue, strong in the northeast; Frontier, strong in Denver; Hawaiian, which has no routes within the continental US; and Alaska / Virgin America, strong in the Northwest and California. But their route maps are limited, and impact the network carriers' fares only where they overlap. If you're in Chicago, JetBlue cannot take you anywhere west of there, and Alaska cannot take you anywhere south or east of there. Frontier's system omits major cities like Boston. In fact, when you're starting from most US airports, the second-tier carriers have limited utility or are simply not there.

We have three niche airlines -- Sun Country, Allegiant, and Spirit -- that offer low base fares and limited flights in some (usually leisure or secondary) markets, although add-on fees can blunt or even erase their price advantage. If you're a businessperson, or schedule is important, these airlines are not really competitive.

Finally we have Southwest which is really none of the above. Southwest flies to fewer cities than the network carriers, sometimes at bargain rates, often more expensively, and with no first class. But it has frequent, dependable, friendly service and no small regional jets. People think Southwest is the "cheap alternative," but it's not -- not predictably so.

The US market is subdivided, geographically and by service tier, so even though there are eleven airlines "competing," chances are only two, maybe three, will have reasonable utility on any given city pair. Traveling from Charlottesville, VA to Grand Forks, ND? You have to fly Delta. From Evansville, IN to Eugene, OR? American or Delta. The second-tier carriers that hold the big guys to heel on some major routes have no effect on pricing to smaller cities like this.

THAT is where the majors make their money: shaking down hostage customers.

The General Accounting Office has found the number of competing airlines on a given route is falling steadily, especially in cities with less traffic:

http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-14-515


It looks like collusion, and it has the practical effect of collusion, but it's just price-matching software working faster than human hands and eyes possibly could.

It's illegal for American and United to get on a WebEx call and agree to make the fare $700 on Chicago-O'Hare to New York-LaGuardia. It is perfectly legal for American's computers to observe a United fare change at 11:00:01 and make American's fares conform at 11:00:02.

txflyer77

The joys of living in a city that serves as hub/focus city to three airlines.

DEN-LAX might be one of the most competitive markets in the country. UA, AA, DL, WN, F9 and NK all fly it nonstop. Rarely does a round trip cost more than $250 if you're at least a couple weeks out.

stablemate77

its a big rip off the american way with all even phone service europe is 29 a month for phone not enough plane lines to lower prices