The Photo ID craze: We need reciprocity!
Mar 31, 2014, 3:03 am
#46
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Passport numbers of US citizens are more private than SSNs. If my passport number gets misused, the problems are different than if a SSN is misused -- sure, a passport number can be more easily changed but some alerts are based on names of persons whose passports/passport numbers have been misused and that is no perfect solution either.
Anyone who posts or trusts in the above quote needs to get clued in why not everything mentioned in a legal convention is legally applicable. 
There are unenforceable elements in some articles of international conventions unless and until there is national enabling legislation and/or contradictions amongst international rules are resolved.
I have dealt professionally with policy makers in this area, and I have no doubt that your above quote is not lawfully applicable across all Schengen states; and the article on which your quote is based has legal problems of its own due to the data sharing restrictions applicable even when wanting to use SIS alerts.
Don't believe me? Here's a clue that policy makers here have considered exactly what I mentioned and they know what is lawfully going on despite your quote.
http://schengen.consilium.europa.eu/...%2045.en11.pdf
Was in a Swedish hotel and in a Danish hotel this past weekend. Provided no passport details for my stays. I gave them my name and credit card and that was it. The weekend before, it was some award stays at different properties and didn't even have to show a credit card at one of them.
There are few, if any, non-Scandinavians who have stayed in as many different Swedish hotels as myself in the past ten years, and I can count on one hand the number of times I showed any photo ID to check-in in this country. Asked for passport details a few more times, but for that there was mostly no verification about accuracy.
Italy has a history of ID obsession under Italian law. I remember my internet at Alitalia lounges being blocked until the reps would take down passport details -- courtesy of Italy's history of ID obsession under Italian law.
According to Schengen rules:
"Hotels and other types of commercial accommodation must register all foreign citizens, including citizens of other Schengen states, by requiring the completion of a registration form by their own hand. This does not apply to accompanying spouses and minor children or members of travel groups. In addition, a valid identification document has to be produced to the hotel manager or staff."
Though I don't always need to fill out the form "by my own hand."
"Hotels and other types of commercial accommodation must register all foreign citizens, including citizens of other Schengen states, by requiring the completion of a registration form by their own hand. This does not apply to accompanying spouses and minor children or members of travel groups. In addition, a valid identification document has to be produced to the hotel manager or staff."
Though I don't always need to fill out the form "by my own hand."
There are unenforceable elements in some articles of international conventions unless and until there is national enabling legislation and/or contradictions amongst international rules are resolved.
I have dealt professionally with policy makers in this area, and I have no doubt that your above quote is not lawfully applicable across all Schengen states; and the article on which your quote is based has legal problems of its own due to the data sharing restrictions applicable even when wanting to use SIS alerts.
Don't believe me? Here's a clue that policy makers here have considered exactly what I mentioned and they know what is lawfully going on despite your quote.
http://schengen.consilium.europa.eu/...%2045.en11.pdf
For what it's worth i've had to write my passport details on the hotel form in 4 of the 5 last mainland European countries i've visited - Sweden, Denmark, Czech Republic and Austria. Can't remember whether I did in Germany or not. But I've never had to show any photo idea to check into a hotel here in the UK.
There are few, if any, non-Scandinavians who have stayed in as many different Swedish hotels as myself in the past ten years, and I can count on one hand the number of times I showed any photo ID to check-in in this country. Asked for passport details a few more times, but for that there was mostly no verification about accuracy.
Italy has a history of ID obsession under Italian law. I remember my internet at Alitalia lounges being blocked until the reps would take down passport details -- courtesy of Italy's history of ID obsession under Italian law.
As for calling the passport number more special than a SSN, I wouldn't go that far. I can get a passport reissued on short notice. Having an alert on your passport isn't quite the same as identity theft.
Regardless, the point of this all on the topic of this thread is that it's required by law in many countries that you present photo ID in the form of a passport or other valid ID card. Your anecdotal experience is off topic.
Mar 31, 2014, 3:26 am
#47
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The UK will always be in Europe. Not necessarily in the EU.
Mar 31, 2014, 4:02 am
#48
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If it weren't for Southern European Schengen hotel stays -- Italy and Spain the large exceptions -- only a very tiny fraction of my Schengen hotel stays would be in countries with a national law requiring all registered guest ID be given to LE/customs/immigration authorities for merely staying at a hotel.
Given the legal diversity in the Schengen Zone on this matter, your list of visited Schengen countries doesn't really speak to much about what is lawfully required and not required other than perhaps speaking to a smaller list of countries.
My shared anecdotal experiences are on topic and are related to legal compliance on this matter. As someone who has dealt professionally with people working the Joint Supervisory Authority for Schengen, I can assure you that this topic has come up before.
Doubt it? Then maybe Google? How about this, http://www.cnpd.pt/bin/actividade/Sc...-2008-2013.pdf ? Check out page 11 and then try to understand it.
OK, you're special. Every Schengen country I've stayed in has required that I present my passport and record the number. The lodging registration portion of Schengen is considered a key element of immigration policy. Most non Schengen countries as well.
As for calling the passport number more special than a SSN, I wouldn't go that far. I can get a passport reissued on short notice. Having an alert on your passport isn't quite the same as identity theft.
Regardless, the point of this all on the topic of this thread is that it's required by law in many countries that you present photo ID in the form of a passport or other valid ID card. Your anecdotal experience is off topic.
As for calling the passport number more special than a SSN, I wouldn't go that far. I can get a passport reissued on short notice. Having an alert on your passport isn't quite the same as identity theft.
Regardless, the point of this all on the topic of this thread is that it's required by law in many countries that you present photo ID in the form of a passport or other valid ID card. Your anecdotal experience is off topic.
My shared anecdotal experiences are on topic and are related to legal compliance on this matter. As someone who has dealt professionally with people working the Joint Supervisory Authority for Schengen, I can assure you that this topic has come up before.
Doubt it? Then maybe Google? How about this, http://www.cnpd.pt/bin/actividade/Sc...-2008-2013.pdf ? Check out page 11 and then try to understand it.
Last edited by GUWonder; Mar 31, 2014 at 4:07 am
Mar 31, 2014, 4:03 am
#49
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The UK will always be in Europe. Not necessarily in the EU.
I suppose we should also be asking what everyone's nationality is. But all you're showing is enforcement is spotty. ID cards count as passports for the purposes of the law and providing your passport number is usually good enough too.
As for the UK being in Europe, I don't care personally. But for the most part they don't consider themselves part of Europe and vis versa. I just refer to them how they refer to themselves.
But again, it doesn't matter what anecdotal experience is. You're getting drawn into the weeds of if it happened to you personally. On the topic of the thread it's required by law. You didn't get asked for your passport number? Good for you! I didn't get a passport stamp when entering a few times, it doesn't mean it's legal or supposed to happen.
Per the topic of the thread, if you're asked for ID when checking in at lodging internationally, it's probably required by law.
Mar 31, 2014, 4:08 am
#50
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OK, you're special. Every Schengen country I've stayed in has required that I present my passport and record the number. The lodging registration portion of Schengen is considered a key element of immigration policy. Most non Schengen countries as well.
As for calling the passport number more special than a SSN, I wouldn't go that far. I can get a passport reissued on short notice. Having an alert on your passport isn't quite the same as identity theft.
Regardless, the point of this all on the topic of this thread is that it's required by law in many countries that you present photo ID in the form of a passport or other valid ID card. Your anecdotal experience is off topic.
As for calling the passport number more special than a SSN, I wouldn't go that far. I can get a passport reissued on short notice. Having an alert on your passport isn't quite the same as identity theft.
Regardless, the point of this all on the topic of this thread is that it's required by law in many countries that you present photo ID in the form of a passport or other valid ID card. Your anecdotal experience is off topic.
My shared anecdotal experiences are on topic and are related to legal compliance on this matter. As someone who has dealt professionally with people working the Joint Supervisory Authority for Schengen, I can assure you that this topic has come up before.
Doubt it? Then maybe Google? How about this, http://www.cnpd.pt/bin/actividade/Sc...-2008-2013.pdf ? Check out page 11 and then try to understand it.
Nor am I doubting your experience. I'm merely stating per the topic of the thread that if it is requested in check in, its because it's required by law. Whether it's enforced everywhere is irrelevant at that point.
Anyway, I'm not trying to pick a fight here. I work professionally in the field too, that's irrelevant for this thread.
Mar 31, 2014, 4:09 am
#51
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If the signature is obliterated, it isn't valid.
If the signatures don't match, the transaction isn't valid.
Checking IDs won't do anything to absolve the merchant from liability for processing an invalid transaction if it later goes awry.
When the US finally catches up with the rest of the world
and goes to PIN cards - surely that will put a stop to any requests for ID with cards? What do people think?
Mar 31, 2014, 5:02 am
#52
Moderator: Manufactured Spending
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However, the US is moving toward chip-and-signature, and there is no indication that PIN is on the radar for credit cards.
Mar 31, 2014, 6:04 am
#53
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I don't recall listing my countries.
Nor am I doubting your experience. I'm merely stating per the topic of the thread that if it is requested in check in, its because it's required by law. Whether it's enforced everywhere is irrelevant at that point.
Anyway, I'm not trying to pick a fight here. I work professionally in the field too, that's irrelevant for this thread.
Nor am I doubting your experience. I'm merely stating per the topic of the thread that if it is requested in check in, its because it's required by law. Whether it's enforced everywhere is irrelevant at that point.
Anyway, I'm not trying to pick a fight here. I work professionally in the field too, that's irrelevant for this thread.
A lot of requests for ID by hotels are not due to national or international legal compliance requirements, but indeed many are.
Just because ID is requested at check-in does not mean it is necessarily required by law -- often enough it is not required for legal compliance.
Last edited by GUWonder; Mar 31, 2014 at 6:11 am
Mar 31, 2014, 6:09 am
#54
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There is indication that PIN is on the radar for US credit card issuers and payment processing companies, but they are fine for now just moving to chip cards.
Mar 31, 2014, 11:54 am
#55
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I don't recall listing my countries.
Nor am I doubting your experience. I'm merely stating per the topic of the thread that if it is requested in check in, its because it's required by law. Whether it's enforced everywhere is irrelevant at that point.
Anyway, I'm not trying to pick a fight here. I work professionally in the field too, that's irrelevant for this thread.
Nor am I doubting your experience. I'm merely stating per the topic of the thread that if it is requested in check in, its because it's required by law. Whether it's enforced everywhere is irrelevant at that point.
Anyway, I'm not trying to pick a fight here. I work professionally in the field too, that's irrelevant for this thread.
A lot of requests for ID by hotels are not due to national or international legal compliance requirements, but indeed many are.
Just because ID is requested at check-in does not mean it is necessarily required by law -- often enough it is not required for legal compliance.
For Schengen countries, nearly every country for me (in case you used my post history as meta data, which sounds like threeish). But probably not as in depth as you. Nor as in depth professionally. I'm just at the start of this career. Apologies for being confrontational earlier.
Mar 31, 2014, 2:32 pm
#56
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This story sounds a bit absurd. It must have been a rather small provider (credit union?) if you were able to get someone on the phone that fast. But how did they know the number of the store to give them a call? Surely you didn't have the phone number of the store available. And even if they did call, how would the store know that the call actually came from your provider and not your buddy sitting out in the parking lot? How did the provider call the store while in the middle of the call with you? The rep would have had to ask a colleague to do it. This all sounds rather unbelievable.
I have done that multiple times with the only merchant I shop at regularly that asks for ID, which is Walmart. Nothing has ever been done. I guess Visa and Mastercard both want Walmart's business more than mine.
Agreed, there is a lot of irrational paranoia on this thread. It's not like they are asking you for your SSN.
I have done that multiple times with the only merchant I shop at regularly that asks for ID, which is Walmart. Nothing has ever been done. I guess Visa and Mastercard both want Walmart's business more than mine.
Agreed, there is a lot of irrational paranoia on this thread. It's not like they are asking you for your SSN.
They conferenced me in on the call so I could clearly hear what was going on. The front-line person passed me onto a specific person, who knew exactly how to handle the situation. I don't recall if they identified their department or not. I wish I recorded and notarized the interaction and then uploaded to Youtube, then perhaps you would believe me, apologies in advance....
Paranoia or not, I like to stand on principle, which includes not showing my papers to any random person who has no right or need to see them. Nothing to do with SSN.
Mar 31, 2014, 5:17 pm
#57
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Quick update and Canadianisms.
- Airlines in Canada ask for ID on boarding to comply with Transport Canada regulations regarding ID. These regs were put into place to require ID at boarding in place of the American practice of requiring ID at security checkpoint. By having the airlines do the doc check, it is a lot better than setting up a separate system through security. The Canadian approach is better because it got rid of the "bouncer" mentality of proving whether the ID was fake or real, ensuring a better passenger experience.
Instances of ID check for credit card purchases have substantially decreased in Canada since the introduction of Chip and PIN.
- Airlines in Canada ask for ID on boarding to comply with Transport Canada regulations regarding ID. These regs were put into place to require ID at boarding in place of the American practice of requiring ID at security checkpoint. By having the airlines do the doc check, it is a lot better than setting up a separate system through security. The Canadian approach is better because it got rid of the "bouncer" mentality of proving whether the ID was fake or real, ensuring a better passenger experience.
Instances of ID check for credit card purchases have substantially decreased in Canada since the introduction of Chip and PIN.
Mar 31, 2014, 6:38 pm
#58
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If you think you have to show ID a lot in the USA, just try living somewhere in South America! In many countries there, you need to show ID in order to PAY CASH at most retailers! (or at least recite your national identity number so that it can be typed into the register)
It shocked me when a pharmacy in Buenos Aires wanted to see my ID when I was paying cash for a bottle of water there, but the locals seemed to be doing it without a second thought.
--J
Mar 31, 2014, 10:51 pm
#60
Moderator: Manufactured Spending
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I thought that was only if they had reason to suspect you are in the country illegally, isn't it? Or do they just copy everyone's ID in order to avoid accusations of racial profiling?