Oh no; 11 across to replace 10!
Nov 7, 2013 | 6:45 am
#1
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Oh no; 11 across to replace 10!
In today's issue of the UK edition of "Business Traveller" comes word that Emirates, who initiated the much detested 10 across configurations, is in discussion with Airbus Industries in Toulouse to explore 11 across seating for the A380!
http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...eating-on-a380
Now I just have to wonder how that can be possible, especially if last weeks statement regarding supporting a minimum 18" seat width is to be complied with!
The potential configuration is a nightmare; would it be 3-5-3?!!! Seat #6 in the centre block would give a whole new meaning to the dreaded "middle seat"!!!
Let's hope this doesn't come true!
http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...eating-on-a380
Now I just have to wonder how that can be possible, especially if last weeks statement regarding supporting a minimum 18" seat width is to be complied with!
The potential configuration is a nightmare; would it be 3-5-3?!!! Seat #6 in the centre block would give a whole new meaning to the dreaded "middle seat"!!!
Let's hope this doesn't come true!
Last edited by TemboOne; Nov 7, 2013 at 6:46 am Reason: sp
Nov 7, 2013 | 9:08 am
#3
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most if not all L-1011 and DC-10 fleets were 2-5-2, so the 5-abreast center section of coach seating is really not new
Nov 7, 2013 | 9:27 am
#4
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Scroll down to the bottom of this page on the Airbus website - they are still proposing a 16.7" seat width in high-density (sorry, "high efficiency"
) configuration on the A330.Interestingly in the context of this Emirates 11-across discussion, Doric (a leasing firm) is talking about firming up their order for 20 A380s, to be leased to a range of airlines. In this Reuters article from yesterday, the Doric CEO Mr Lapidus is quoted:
One keystone of Lapiduss plan is to outfit the A380s with more seats. His will have 11-abreast in economy compared with 10 in the current version. Lapidus also expects to maintain comfort levels by raising the floor under the seats on the main deck to boost available width, he said.
While Airbus markets the double-decker as easily accommodating 525 people in a standard three classes, operators have generally preferred less-dense configurations. The majority seat fewer than 500, outfitting the plane as a luxury flagship. Korean Air Lines Co. (003490) carries only 407 people in its A380s.
When we put the proper seat count on the plane, the economics are unbeatable and will remain unbeatable, Lapidus said.
While Airbus markets the double-decker as easily accommodating 525 people in a standard three classes, operators have generally preferred less-dense configurations. The majority seat fewer than 500, outfitting the plane as a luxury flagship. Korean Air Lines Co. (003490) carries only 407 people in its A380s.
When we put the proper seat count on the plane, the economics are unbeatable and will remain unbeatable, Lapidus said.
And that's before I say anything about his comment about the "proper seat count"...
Nov 7, 2013 | 10:23 am
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Nov 9, 2013 | 5:53 pm
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Nov 9, 2013 | 6:13 pm
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Nov 9, 2013 | 7:33 pm
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Nov 10, 2013 | 4:56 am
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Nov 10, 2013 | 1:00 pm
#12
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Nov 10, 2013 | 3:09 pm
#13
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It's allright for some people . . .
Well kb1992, good for you and congratulations on your prestige level.However, there are some pensioners on here who may only fly a few times in their golden years and who will never see the inside of an MLL, or indeed an Executive class seat or travel on anything but a Tango fare, except on their long walk back to Air Canada's new steerage class seating in 77HDs!
Back in the UK in the 50s the phrase "I'm allright Jack" was quite common.
Thanks for reminding me of it with your amusing but sad posting.
Nov 11, 2013 | 1:52 am
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Hiproom on 9 or 11 abreast A380
Somebody wants 11 abreast:
http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...eating-on-a380
What EXACTLY does it feel like?
By my computation, more than.
Now lets go through my estimates.
Ill explain the effect of a tighter standard.
Assuming:
Seatpans 17,0 inch all
Armrests 2,0 inch all
Aisles 17,0 inch all
This means exactly 19,0 inch person to person, equally to each seat and aisle, + 2 inches for the entire seating, + the unusable gap both side between window seat armrest and widest point of the walls
And 18 inch standard, likewise applied equally to aisles, would mean 20,0 inch per person in like manner.
7 abreast - 9 persons: 182 inch at 18 inch, 173 at 17 inch
Boeing 767: http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/com...ps/767sec2.pdf
Cross-sections, pages 24-25 of PDF, state 186 inch total width, 184 or 185 inch usable total seating. Thus, 2-3 inches to spare at 7 abreast - at page 24 Boeing option has 2 inch spare, spends them on 19,0 inch aisles. Alternative might be 18,2 inch seats.
Boeing also shows a seatmap with 8 abreast, page 23 - and carefully omits cross-section for that. Analysis comes later
8 abreast - 10 persons: 202 inch at 18 inch, 192 at 17 inch
Well, as stated above, Boeing 767 is short of the 17,0 inch standard by at least 7 inch total.
Airbus 330: http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/medi...30-Apr2013.pdf
Cross-sections, page 82 of PDF, state 208 inch total width.
The totals come out as:
first class - 204,0
business class - 206,0 (sic, check)
tourist class - 204,0
charter class - 204,3
Tourist class would have 2 inches to spare from 18 inch standard. The standard seats are actually not 18 inches wide, but this is because the aisles are 19,0 inch. With 18,0 inch seats, the other place where Airbus put the 2 inches was surplus armrest in middle. Alternatively, A330 could, just like 767, offer 18,2 inch seats and aisles.
Analysis of A330 charter class comes later.
Airbus 380: http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/medi...0_20121101.pdf
Cross-sections, pages 81 and 82 of PDF
The totals come out as 208,0 inch. Which, to note, is about 4 inches wider than A330. Airbus offers A380 with 18,0 seats, plus spare 2 inch for surplus armrest in the middle, and 4 inch for 2 20,0 inch aisles. Alternative would be 18,6 inch seats.
9 abreast - 11 persons: 222 inch at 18 inch, 211 at 17 inch
Boeing 787: http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/com...ps/787sec2.pdf
Cross-sections, page 7 of PDF - total width omitted
Seating width: first/business class 215,0 inch, economy class 214,8 inch
Obviously 18 inch standard does not fit. 17 inch standard leaves 4 inches to spare. What Boeing offers is spend 2 inches on aisles 18,0 inch each, and 1,8 inches on seats 17,2 inch each (59,6 inch seat block). Alternative would be 17,3 inch seats (and 17,0 aisles)
NOW the analysis of A330 charter class:
Quoting 16,5 inch aisles and 57,1 inch seat blocks. Well, 3 seats at 16,5 inch would total 49,5 inch, and 4 armrests at 2,0 inch would total 57,5 inch.
57,1 inch seat block suggests, but does not spell out, cutting the armrests to 1,9 inch each. The elbowroom is still equivalent to 16,4 inch seats.
NOW, the analysis of 8 abreast 767.
16,5 inch seats and aisles would require 187 inches - which 767 does not have. 16,4 inches would still require 186 inches, and the maximum available is 185. Looks like a 8 abreast 767, and these exist, has effective seat width of 16,3 inches.
Airbus 350: http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/medi...-June-2013.pdf
Cross-sections, page 27 of PDF - also total width omitted
Seating width:
Business/first - 220,00 inch
Economy class - 216,53 inch
Due to divergence as much as 3,47 inch I am reluctant to comment without more reliable and detailed facts.
Airbus is suggesting armrest as narrow as 1,5 inch. That would indeed total 60,0 inch seat blocks - but think that the shoulder room still is the same as in effective 17,5 inch seat with 2,0 inch armrest.
Back to A380: by my estimates the A380 upper deck should fit 16,7 inch seats
10 abreast - 12 persons: 242 inch at 18 inch, 230 at 17 inch
MD-11: http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/com...s/md11sec2.pdf
Cross-sections: pages 13 to 16 of PDF
Total seating width - 224 inch. Douglas spells out the division: 16,5 inches for seats and aisles, 2,0 for armrests.
Tristar: hard to find, but is quoted to be 2 inch wider than DC-10
Boeing 777: http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/com...s/777rsec2.pdf
Cross-sections - pages 14 and 15 of PDF
Seating width for 10 abreast stated as 230 inch total, exactly at standard of 17 inch.
Boeing 747: http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/com...s/7478sec2.pdf
Cross-section: pages 11 to 13 of PDF. Full width not stated, seating width comes to 239 inch total. Boeing is actually offering about 17,2 inch seats, page 13, while spending on 19,5 inch aisles and double middle armrest. 17,7 inch width should be possible with different division.
A380 main deck - total width not given. Seating width totals:
first class 247 inch
tourist class 248 inch
Airbus is offering 18 inch seats, but 2 inches wasted on double middle armrests, and aisles at 20 inch. 18,5 inch seats should fit with 18,5 inch aisles
11 abreast - 13 persons: 262 inch at 18 inch, 249 at 17 inch
So... what effective seat widths are on offer?
Boeing 767 8 abreast: 16,3 inch
A330 9 abreast - 16,4 inch
DC-10 10 abreast - 16,5 inch
Tristar 10 abreast - 16,7 inch
A380 upper deck 9 abreast - 16,7 inch
A380 lower deck 11 abreast - 16,9 inch
B777 10 abreast - 17,0 inch
B787 9 abreast - 17,2 inch.
So, can you check my computations?
How would your hips fit in a 10 abreast A350, which Air Asia has bought?
Who shall lease these 20 Doric frames with 11 abreast lower deck? And what is on Doric upper deck?
http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...eating-on-a380
What EXACTLY does it feel like?
Quoted recently in the Wall Street Journal, Emirates CEO Tim Clark said, "We've tried it [11-across A380 seating]. It works."
All A380s currently in airline fleets are configured 3-4-3 in economy class with 18ins wide seats. Move to 11-across and chances are that seat width will be up to an inch narrower.
Now lets go through my estimates.
Ill explain the effect of a tighter standard.
Assuming:
Seatpans 17,0 inch all
Armrests 2,0 inch all
Aisles 17,0 inch all
This means exactly 19,0 inch person to person, equally to each seat and aisle, + 2 inches for the entire seating, + the unusable gap both side between window seat armrest and widest point of the walls
And 18 inch standard, likewise applied equally to aisles, would mean 20,0 inch per person in like manner.
7 abreast - 9 persons: 182 inch at 18 inch, 173 at 17 inch
Boeing 767: http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/com...ps/767sec2.pdf
Cross-sections, pages 24-25 of PDF, state 186 inch total width, 184 or 185 inch usable total seating. Thus, 2-3 inches to spare at 7 abreast - at page 24 Boeing option has 2 inch spare, spends them on 19,0 inch aisles. Alternative might be 18,2 inch seats.
Boeing also shows a seatmap with 8 abreast, page 23 - and carefully omits cross-section for that. Analysis comes later
8 abreast - 10 persons: 202 inch at 18 inch, 192 at 17 inch
Well, as stated above, Boeing 767 is short of the 17,0 inch standard by at least 7 inch total.
Airbus 330: http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/medi...30-Apr2013.pdf
Cross-sections, page 82 of PDF, state 208 inch total width.
The totals come out as:
first class - 204,0
business class - 206,0 (sic, check)
tourist class - 204,0
charter class - 204,3
Tourist class would have 2 inches to spare from 18 inch standard. The standard seats are actually not 18 inches wide, but this is because the aisles are 19,0 inch. With 18,0 inch seats, the other place where Airbus put the 2 inches was surplus armrest in middle. Alternatively, A330 could, just like 767, offer 18,2 inch seats and aisles.
Analysis of A330 charter class comes later.
Airbus 380: http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/medi...0_20121101.pdf
Cross-sections, pages 81 and 82 of PDF
The totals come out as 208,0 inch. Which, to note, is about 4 inches wider than A330. Airbus offers A380 with 18,0 seats, plus spare 2 inch for surplus armrest in the middle, and 4 inch for 2 20,0 inch aisles. Alternative would be 18,6 inch seats.
9 abreast - 11 persons: 222 inch at 18 inch, 211 at 17 inch
Boeing 787: http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/com...ps/787sec2.pdf
Cross-sections, page 7 of PDF - total width omitted
Seating width: first/business class 215,0 inch, economy class 214,8 inch
Obviously 18 inch standard does not fit. 17 inch standard leaves 4 inches to spare. What Boeing offers is spend 2 inches on aisles 18,0 inch each, and 1,8 inches on seats 17,2 inch each (59,6 inch seat block). Alternative would be 17,3 inch seats (and 17,0 aisles)
NOW the analysis of A330 charter class:
Quoting 16,5 inch aisles and 57,1 inch seat blocks. Well, 3 seats at 16,5 inch would total 49,5 inch, and 4 armrests at 2,0 inch would total 57,5 inch.
57,1 inch seat block suggests, but does not spell out, cutting the armrests to 1,9 inch each. The elbowroom is still equivalent to 16,4 inch seats.
NOW, the analysis of 8 abreast 767.
16,5 inch seats and aisles would require 187 inches - which 767 does not have. 16,4 inches would still require 186 inches, and the maximum available is 185. Looks like a 8 abreast 767, and these exist, has effective seat width of 16,3 inches.
Airbus 350: http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/medi...-June-2013.pdf
Cross-sections, page 27 of PDF - also total width omitted
Seating width:
Business/first - 220,00 inch
Economy class - 216,53 inch
Due to divergence as much as 3,47 inch I am reluctant to comment without more reliable and detailed facts.
Airbus is suggesting armrest as narrow as 1,5 inch. That would indeed total 60,0 inch seat blocks - but think that the shoulder room still is the same as in effective 17,5 inch seat with 2,0 inch armrest.
Back to A380: by my estimates the A380 upper deck should fit 16,7 inch seats
10 abreast - 12 persons: 242 inch at 18 inch, 230 at 17 inch
MD-11: http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/com...s/md11sec2.pdf
Cross-sections: pages 13 to 16 of PDF
Total seating width - 224 inch. Douglas spells out the division: 16,5 inches for seats and aisles, 2,0 for armrests.
Tristar: hard to find, but is quoted to be 2 inch wider than DC-10
Boeing 777: http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/com...s/777rsec2.pdf
Cross-sections - pages 14 and 15 of PDF
Seating width for 10 abreast stated as 230 inch total, exactly at standard of 17 inch.
Boeing 747: http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/com...s/7478sec2.pdf
Cross-section: pages 11 to 13 of PDF. Full width not stated, seating width comes to 239 inch total. Boeing is actually offering about 17,2 inch seats, page 13, while spending on 19,5 inch aisles and double middle armrest. 17,7 inch width should be possible with different division.
A380 main deck - total width not given. Seating width totals:
first class 247 inch
tourist class 248 inch
Airbus is offering 18 inch seats, but 2 inches wasted on double middle armrests, and aisles at 20 inch. 18,5 inch seats should fit with 18,5 inch aisles
11 abreast - 13 persons: 262 inch at 18 inch, 249 at 17 inch
So... what effective seat widths are on offer?
Boeing 767 8 abreast: 16,3 inch
A330 9 abreast - 16,4 inch
DC-10 10 abreast - 16,5 inch
Tristar 10 abreast - 16,7 inch
A380 upper deck 9 abreast - 16,7 inch
A380 lower deck 11 abreast - 16,9 inch
B777 10 abreast - 17,0 inch
B787 9 abreast - 17,2 inch.
So, can you check my computations?
How would your hips fit in a 10 abreast A350, which Air Asia has bought?
Who shall lease these 20 Doric frames with 11 abreast lower deck? And what is on Doric upper deck?