Old Timer's Airline Quiz and Discussion.
Jan 27, 2019, 12:26 pm
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While 5th freedoms never went away, just very few rights are used these days. As recent as the early '70s, I remember 4-5 stop flights on 707s between SIN and LHR with presumed local rights, on ML, BA, QF and later SQ (in place of ML) flights. With the 747-200 coming into use in the mid '70s, stops soon dropped to 3. With the 747-300, stops then dropped to 1 (BAH was always the middle-of-the-night M-E stop of choice for ML, QF and SQ), later DXB), and with the 747-400, non-stops were the mainstay. A couple more routes I flew were SR and SN (DC-10s) between ZRH/BRU and SIN in the late '70s and at 2 stops were made.inbetween. The rise of many other Asia airlines into international/intercontinental ones coincided with fewer/non stops hence one didn't notice them as much as European airlines.
My last milkrun was a PR 747-200 flight c.1988 that flew LGW-FRA - BOM-BKK (where I got off) and MNL. I'm sure there was another stop inbetween FRA and BOM but I don't recall where it was.
In addition to infrequent service, there was also poor timing. Most of the Asia-Europe flights arrived a the final destination mid-late morning so one would have to get to the airport early in FCO or ATH and, risk a delayed incoming flight when you had to call a number to ask an agent for flight status. Similarly, flights to Asia usually didn't leave until the afternoon or evening which would make for a relatively-late arrival into continental Europe.
Asia seems to be a good place to get 5th freedoms for now with BKK being a particular hub. One of the 5th freedoms that has continued since at least the '70s is CX's SIN-BKK-HKG flight (with rights on local SIN-BKK). I remember flying this on a 707 and it is still offered on much-larger and modern equipment.
My last milkrun was a PR 747-200 flight c.1988 that flew LGW-FRA - BOM-BKK (where I got off) and MNL. I'm sure there was another stop inbetween FRA and BOM but I don't recall where it was.
In addition to infrequent service, there was also poor timing. Most of the Asia-Europe flights arrived a the final destination mid-late morning so one would have to get to the airport early in FCO or ATH and, risk a delayed incoming flight when you had to call a number to ask an agent for flight status. Similarly, flights to Asia usually didn't leave until the afternoon or evening which would make for a relatively-late arrival into continental Europe.
Asia seems to be a good place to get 5th freedoms for now with BKK being a particular hub. One of the 5th freedoms that has continued since at least the '70s is CX's SIN-BKK-HKG flight (with rights on local SIN-BKK). I remember flying this on a 707 and it is still offered on much-larger and modern equipment.
Jan 27, 2019, 2:44 pm
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Here are several examples of fifth freedom services in North America that were being operated on a nonstop basis in the fall of 1994.....
* Houston (IAH) - Mexico City (MEX) - Air France (AF) with an A340 four days a week
* Vancouver (YVR) - Mexico City (MEX) - Japan Air Lines (JL) with a B747-200 twice a week
* Miami (MIA) - Cancun (CUN) - Iberia (IB) with a DC-9-30 operated five days a week
* Montreal Mirabel (YMX) - Detroit (DTW) - British Airways (BA) with a B747-400 operated daily
* Montreal Mirabel (YMX) - New York Kennedy (JFK) - Aerolineas Argentinas (AR) with an A310 twice a week
* Montreal Mirabel (YMX) - New York Kennedy (JFK) - LADECO (UC) with a 757 three days a week
* Montreal Mirabel (YMX) - New York Kennedy (JFK) - Royal Air Maroc (AT) with a B747SP three days a week
We have discussed most of these here on the OTAQ&D in the past and there are other examples, of course.
And one of those other examples has a time line of 1976: Air France was operating Boeing 707 service nonstop from New York JFK to Guadalajara (GDL) four days a week with this flight then continuing on from GDL to Puerto Vallarta (PVR).
* Houston (IAH) - Mexico City (MEX) - Air France (AF) with an A340 four days a week
* Vancouver (YVR) - Mexico City (MEX) - Japan Air Lines (JL) with a B747-200 twice a week
* Miami (MIA) - Cancun (CUN) - Iberia (IB) with a DC-9-30 operated five days a week
* Montreal Mirabel (YMX) - Detroit (DTW) - British Airways (BA) with a B747-400 operated daily
* Montreal Mirabel (YMX) - New York Kennedy (JFK) - Aerolineas Argentinas (AR) with an A310 twice a week
* Montreal Mirabel (YMX) - New York Kennedy (JFK) - LADECO (UC) with a 757 three days a week
* Montreal Mirabel (YMX) - New York Kennedy (JFK) - Royal Air Maroc (AT) with a B747SP three days a week
We have discussed most of these here on the OTAQ&D in the past and there are other examples, of course.
And one of those other examples has a time line of 1976: Air France was operating Boeing 707 service nonstop from New York JFK to Guadalajara (GDL) four days a week with this flight then continuing on from GDL to Puerto Vallarta (PVR).
Jan 27, 2019, 3:21 pm
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One of the biggest continuing 5th freedoms of all is Cathay Pacific, out of Taipei in Taiwan onward to other Asian points, Seoul, Tokyo, Nagoya, Osaka, daily nonstop widebodies to all. Ostensibly through flights from Hong Kong, all are overtaken by Cathay nonstops to these points, so are aimed squarely at the Taiwan market.
I was surprised, seeing the passenger numbers in the 1990s for Singapore to London, that while Singapore Airlines were No 1, Qantas were No 2, and beat the number of BA passengers boarding (not direct transit) at Singapore on the route.
I was surprised, seeing the passenger numbers in the 1990s for Singapore to London, that while Singapore Airlines were No 1, Qantas were No 2, and beat the number of BA passengers boarding (not direct transit) at Singapore on the route.
Jan 27, 2019, 7:14 pm
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As recently as this past November, yours truly enjoyed Fifth Freedom flights round trip between Kuala Lumpur and Singapore. Southbound was aboard an Uzbekistan Airways 767-300 ($71.00 USD) while the return trip to KUL was aboard an Air Mauritius A330-200 ($78.00 USD). Last year I logged a 5th Freedom flight aboard an Ethiopian 787 between Bangkok and Kuala Lumpur ($83.00 USD) and a couple of weeks later notched another aboard a KLM 777-300 ($185.00 Business Class) between Denpasar and Singapore. Unfortunately, I was born a bit too late to have taken advantage of the multi-stop routings between Europe and Asia/Australia/New Zealand.
Last edited by Seat 2A; Jan 27, 2019 at 7:22 pm
Jan 27, 2019, 7:59 pm
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Here are all of the current quiz items that remain unanswered or partially answered with hints included....
The following two quiz items both have a time line of the fall of 1993.....
36. There was only one airline operating Boeing 747-400 service nonstop from Brussels (BRU) to London Heathrow at this time. This flight only operated once a week. Name the airline that operated this service. The flight originated in Asia. The air carrier wasn't Thai Airways International.
39. You are in Caracas and need to travel to Seattle. Ah, what's this? A direct one stop flight and first class is available! You will depart CCS at 10:00 am and arrive into SEA at 7:05 pm. Name the airline, the stop and the equipment. This was a same plane service with no change of equipment and the stop was made in the U.S.
50. It's now late spring in 2001 and your long term project work conducted from an office near La Guardia Airport in New York City has almost concluded. There's just one more meeting to attend and it will involve a lunch at a location near San Francisco International Airport. You've grown accustomed to flying out of La Guardia during this work assignment as the airfield is very conveniently located to the office and your apartment. So you find a direct flight departing LGA at 6:50 am which will get you into SFO at 11:55 am with one stop being made en route. You're not familiar with the airline operating the flight but you've been informed you will be flying on board an aircraft type which the air carrier has recently introduced into their small fleet. Name the airline, the stop and the equipment. The air carrier in question was a recent start-up which had been in operation for several years at this time.
The time line for this quiz item is the fall of 1993.....
52. Only one airline was operating Boeing 747-400 service from Zurich (ZRH) nonstop to London Gatwick (LGW) at this time. The flights were operated twice a week. Identify this air carrier. This flight originated in Asia. The airline in question wasn't Air China, China Airlines, EVA Air or Philippine Airlines.
The following quiz item has a time line of the fall of 1994....
72. This air carrier was operating the only direct service from West Palm Beach (PBI) to Bangor, Maine (BGR) at this time with two stops being made en route. Name the airline, both stops and the aircraft type. It wasn't USAir or Midway, the equipment wasn't a B737-200 or Fokker 100 and the first stop wasn't made at CLT or RDU. The second stop was made in Newburgh, NY (SWF).
The following two quiz items both have a time line of the fall of 1993.....
36. There was only one airline operating Boeing 747-400 service nonstop from Brussels (BRU) to London Heathrow at this time. This flight only operated once a week. Name the airline that operated this service. The flight originated in Asia. The air carrier wasn't Thai Airways International.
39. You are in Caracas and need to travel to Seattle. Ah, what's this? A direct one stop flight and first class is available! You will depart CCS at 10:00 am and arrive into SEA at 7:05 pm. Name the airline, the stop and the equipment. This was a same plane service with no change of equipment and the stop was made in the U.S.
50. It's now late spring in 2001 and your long term project work conducted from an office near La Guardia Airport in New York City has almost concluded. There's just one more meeting to attend and it will involve a lunch at a location near San Francisco International Airport. You've grown accustomed to flying out of La Guardia during this work assignment as the airfield is very conveniently located to the office and your apartment. So you find a direct flight departing LGA at 6:50 am which will get you into SFO at 11:55 am with one stop being made en route. You're not familiar with the airline operating the flight but you've been informed you will be flying on board an aircraft type which the air carrier has recently introduced into their small fleet. Name the airline, the stop and the equipment. The air carrier in question was a recent start-up which had been in operation for several years at this time.
The time line for this quiz item is the fall of 1993.....
52. Only one airline was operating Boeing 747-400 service from Zurich (ZRH) nonstop to London Gatwick (LGW) at this time. The flights were operated twice a week. Identify this air carrier. This flight originated in Asia. The airline in question wasn't Air China, China Airlines, EVA Air or Philippine Airlines.
The following quiz item has a time line of the fall of 1994....
72. This air carrier was operating the only direct service from West Palm Beach (PBI) to Bangor, Maine (BGR) at this time with two stops being made en route. Name the airline, both stops and the aircraft type. It wasn't USAir or Midway, the equipment wasn't a B737-200 or Fokker 100 and the first stop wasn't made at CLT or RDU. The second stop was made in Newburgh, NY (SWF).
And now we are down to just five left......so without further adieu, here are the answers.
The envelope, please.....
36. The airline was Singapore. Here is the complete schedule.....
SQ 320: Singapore (SIN) 11:00 - 17:35 Brussels (BRU) 18:40 - 18:45 London Heathrow (LHR)
Freq: Tuesdays only
Equip: 744
Service classes: P/J/Y
BTW, this was the one and only weekly nonstop from Singapore to Brussels at this time.
39. Once again, we are on board the Friendly Skies of United Airlines. And the stop was made in New York City. Here's the sched.....
UA 870: Caracas (CCS) 10:00a - 2:46p New York Kennedy (JFK) 4:10p - 7:05p Seattle (SEA)
Freq: Daily
Equip: 757
50. The new start up air carrier in question was Vanguard. Here's the sched....
NJ 704: New York La Guardia (LGA) 6:50a - 9:20a Kansas City (MCI) 10:05a - 11:55a San Francisco (SFO)
Freq: Daily
Equip: MD-80
Vanguard had begun operations with Boeing 737-200 aircraft. And by 2001, they had added not only MD-80 equipment but also the MD-87 to their small fleet.
52. The airline was Cathay Pacific. Here's the complete sched...
CX 291: Hong Kong (HKG) 23:30 - 06:20 (+1) Zurich (ZRH) 07:40 - 08:30 London Gatwick (LGW)
Freq: Wednesdays and Saturdays only
Equip: 744
Service classes: F/J/Y
72. Delta is ready when you are! Here's the sched....
DL 716: West Palm Beach (PBI) 4:10p - 5:48p Atlanta (ATL) 7:05p - 9:10p Newburgh (SWF) 9:35p - 10:46p Bangor (BGR)
Freq: Daily
Equip: MD-80
Meal service: Dinner ATL-SWF
Whew! I made it! Thanks for participating or just looking in and keeping track of us here!
Last edited by jlemon; Jan 27, 2019 at 8:06 pm
Jan 28, 2019, 7:54 am
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The North Atlantic 5th freedom flights out of London are much reduced now. A longstanding one was the daily Air India 747 from LHR to JFK, which operated (through from India) at the key times for a daily return, and sold a lot of tickets through the semi-grey market for the route, through minor travel agencies and those who used to make a feature of the small ads in the Sunday Times newspaper, which was regarded as the clearing house for this. One hallmark of these was they never advised the actual operating carrier until the last mandated moment, focusing entirely on price. This was said to be why Air India maintained their longstanding 13.00 departure from LHR to JFK, as most of the mainstream carriers had such a departure at that time as well.
Gosh, who used to run 747s from LHR to JFK at various times ? Air India, El Al, Kuwait Airways, Alia ... I'm sure we've had more than this within the thread here over time.
A continuing operation is the daily Air New Zealand flight from London to LAX. Of course, they have to go this way anyway, but their through traffic from London to New Zealand is pretty thin nowadays (much has now been scooped by Emirates/Qatar), and they have established commercial contacts with some of the the mainstream corporate users on the route, (aerospace, the studios, media, tour companies etc) sufficiently to maintain their presence on the other side of the world.
Gosh, who used to run 747s from LHR to JFK at various times ? Air India, El Al, Kuwait Airways, Alia ... I'm sure we've had more than this within the thread here over time.
A continuing operation is the daily Air New Zealand flight from London to LAX. Of course, they have to go this way anyway, but their through traffic from London to New Zealand is pretty thin nowadays (much has now been scooped by Emirates/Qatar), and they have established commercial contacts with some of the the mainstream corporate users on the route, (aerospace, the studios, media, tour companies etc) sufficiently to maintain their presence on the other side of the world.
Jan 28, 2019, 11:06 am
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Well, I must admit I am thoroughly enjoying the discussion here concerning various air carriers operating fifth freedom services.
So to that end, how about a quiz encore from yours truly concerning such fifth freedom services in North America?
I have already given several examples above concerning such flights operated by Aerolineas Argentinas, Air France, British Airways, Iberia, Japan Air Lines, LADECO and Royal Air Maroc. As I mentioned, there were other airlines also operating fifth freedom flights at this time in 1994.
The time line for our fifth freedom quiz is the fall of 1994 using the North American OAG which covers all scheduled passenger flights in the U.S., Canada and Mexico as well as virtually all of the islands in the Caribbean plus the Bahamas and Bermuda. Please note that airline flights for Central America and South America are not included in this OAG.
The following is a list of air carriers to include the respective equipment they operated on fifth freedom services in North America as well as the frequency of these flights. In every case, we are looking for the specific city pairs served. So here we go.....
1. Aeroflot (SU) - Ilyushin IL-62 operating once a week ANSWERED
2. Aviateca (GU) - Boeing 737-300 operating four days a week ANSWERED
3. COPA (CM) - Boeing 737-200 operating daily
4. LACSA (LR) - Airbus A320 operating daily ANSWERED
5. Lufthansa (LH) - Airbus A340 operating between one city and two different destinations, the first route served once a week and the second route served twice a week Antigua (ANU) - San Juan (SJU) and _________ - San Juan (SJU). Still looking for one more island destination here.
6. Malaysia Airlines (MH) - Boeing 747-400 operating twice a week ANSWERED
So to that end, how about a quiz encore from yours truly concerning such fifth freedom services in North America?
I have already given several examples above concerning such flights operated by Aerolineas Argentinas, Air France, British Airways, Iberia, Japan Air Lines, LADECO and Royal Air Maroc. As I mentioned, there were other airlines also operating fifth freedom flights at this time in 1994.
The time line for our fifth freedom quiz is the fall of 1994 using the North American OAG which covers all scheduled passenger flights in the U.S., Canada and Mexico as well as virtually all of the islands in the Caribbean plus the Bahamas and Bermuda. Please note that airline flights for Central America and South America are not included in this OAG.
The following is a list of air carriers to include the respective equipment they operated on fifth freedom services in North America as well as the frequency of these flights. In every case, we are looking for the specific city pairs served. So here we go.....
1. Aeroflot (SU) - Ilyushin IL-62 operating once a week ANSWERED
2. Aviateca (GU) - Boeing 737-300 operating four days a week ANSWERED
3. COPA (CM) - Boeing 737-200 operating daily
4. LACSA (LR) - Airbus A320 operating daily ANSWERED
5. Lufthansa (LH) - Airbus A340 operating between one city and two different destinations, the first route served once a week and the second route served twice a week Antigua (ANU) - San Juan (SJU) and _________ - San Juan (SJU). Still looking for one more island destination here.
6. Malaysia Airlines (MH) - Boeing 747-400 operating twice a week ANSWERED
Last edited by jlemon; Jan 30, 2019 at 10:39 am Reason: answer updates
Jan 28, 2019, 12:06 pm
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... The time line for our fifth freedom quiz is the fall of 1994 using the North American OAG which covers all scheduled passenger flights in the U.S., Canada and Mexico as well as virtually all of the islands in the Caribbean plus the Bahamas and Bermuda. Please note that airline flights for Central America and South America are not included in this OAG.
The following is a list of air carriers to include the respective equipment they operated on fifth freedom services in North America as well as the frequency of these flights. In every case, we are looking for the specific city pairs served. So here we go.....
4. LACSA (LR) - Airbus A320 operating daily
6. Malaysia Airlines (MH) - Boeing 747-400 operating twice a week
The following is a list of air carriers to include the respective equipment they operated on fifth freedom services in North America as well as the frequency of these flights. In every case, we are looking for the specific city pairs served. So here we go.....
4. LACSA (LR) - Airbus A320 operating daily
6. Malaysia Airlines (MH) - Boeing 747-400 operating twice a week
4- LR 320 ... New York Kennedy (JFK) <--> Mexico City (MEX)
6- MH 744 ... Los Angeles (LAX) <--> Mexico City (MEX)
Jan 28, 2019, 12:17 pm
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6. Correct! Here are the scheds.....
MH 90: Los Angeles (LAX) 7:45p - 11:59p Mexico City (MEX)
Freq: Friday and Sundays only
Equip: 744
Service classes: F/C/Y
MH 91: Mexico City (MEX) 8:30p - 11:00p Los Angeles (LAX)
Freq: Mondays and Saturdays only
Equip: 744
Service classes: F/C/Y
Complete round trip routing for this Malaysia Airlines service was KUL - TPE - LAX - MEX.
Jan 28, 2019, 4:35 pm
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Well I'll have a go at a couple of these...
2. Aviateca (GU) - Boeing 737-300 operating four days a week Back in the 727-100 days, this flight came into IAH from MEX. Later, I'm thinking MSY from MID
4. LACSA (LR) - Airbus A320 operating daily This flight used to come up to LAX from Mexico City. I believe there was also a flight between Cancun and New Orleans about this time, but don't hold me to it. EQ might've been a 72S or A320
2. Aviateca (GU) - Boeing 737-300 operating four days a week Back in the 727-100 days, this flight came into IAH from MEX. Later, I'm thinking MSY from MID
4. LACSA (LR) - Airbus A320 operating daily This flight used to come up to LAX from Mexico City. I believe there was also a flight between Cancun and New Orleans about this time, but don't hold me to it. EQ might've been a 72S or A320
Jan 28, 2019, 6:40 pm
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1- Aeroflot IL-62 may have been the North American hotbed of Fifth Freedom ops: JFK<—>Montreal (YUL)
Jan 28, 2019, 6:46 pm
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Well I'll have a go at a couple of these...
2. Aviateca (GU) - Boeing 737-300 operating four days a week Back in the 727-100 days, this flight came into IAH from MEX. Later, I'm thinking MSY from MID
4. LACSA (LR) - Airbus A320 operating daily This flight used to come up to LAX from Mexico City. I believe there was also a flight between Cancun and New Orleans about this time, but don't hold me to it. EQ might've been a 72S or A320
2. Aviateca (GU) - Boeing 737-300 operating four days a week Back in the 727-100 days, this flight came into IAH from MEX. Later, I'm thinking MSY from MID
4. LACSA (LR) - Airbus A320 operating daily This flight used to come up to LAX from Mexico City. I believe there was also a flight between Cancun and New Orleans about this time, but don't hold me to it. EQ might've been a 72S or A320
GU 920: Merida (MID) 10:30a - 1:30p Houston (IAH)
Freq: Tuesdays, Thursdays, Saturdays and Sundays only
Equip: B737-300
Service class: Y
Meal service: Breakfast
GU 921: Houston (IAH) 2:20p - 3:20p Merida (MID)
Freq: Tuesdays, Thursdays, Saturdays and Sundays only
Equip: B737-300
Service class: Y
Meal service: Lunch
The complete round trip routing for these flights was GUA - MID - IAH.
4. Correct! Here are the scheds....
LR 640: Mexico City (MEX) 6:30p - 9:30p Los Angeles (LAX)
Freq: Daily
Equip: A320
Service class: Y
Meal service: None
LR 641: Los Angeles (LAX) 1:30a - 6:30a Mexico City (MEX)
Freq; Daily
Equip: A320
Service class: Y
Meal service: None
The complete round trip routing for these flights varied. Depending on the day of the week, LR 640 operated SJO - SAL - MEX - LAX or SJO - GUA - MEX - LAX with the same reverse routings being flown on the southbound service.
Jan 28, 2019, 6:53 pm
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However, the Aeroflot flight in question was not being operated between Montreal and New York City at this time. In other words, we are looking for a different city pair.