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Do you live in Russia? It may be legal there. It is certainly not legal elsewhere. I find it strange that otherwise ethical people talk themselves into thinking this is okay.
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Originally Posted by murphy
Copyright licenses grant distribution rights. No matter where their server is, they're distributing it to your computer. If your computer is outside Russia, then they don't have the right to do this.
Several people have interpreted this section of the US Copyright Law to mean that importation of infringing material into the United States is legal if for personal use. The copies of the work were lawfully made on the servers in Russia and "imported" into the US, assuming for personal use. |
If the RIAA really thinks this site is illegal then they should go after them, not some defenseless grandma or high school kid as they have wont to do heretofore. It's the fascistic methods that RIAA employs that make me want to stick it to them by downloading songs from sites of questionable legality such as alltunes.com but so far I've resisted the urge. :)
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Several people want it to be legal, and are willing to contort themselves to make it seem so. But come on, does this site really pass the sniff test? Really, if one is comfortable taking music and not having the people who created it be compensated, fine. It's none of my business. But to claim this service is any more legal than gnutella or the illegal torrent sites is wrong.
Having it be endorsed by a FlyerTalk moderator is really lame. Why lock this thread, and then endorse a site whose entire business is based on selling other people's property? |
Originally Posted by murphy
Several people want it to be legal, and are willing to contort themselves to make it seem so. But come on, does this site really pass the sniff test? Really, if one is comfortable taking music and not having the people who created it be compensated, fine. It's none of my business. But to claim this service is any more legal than gnutella or the illegal torrent sites is wrong.
Having it be endorsed by a FlyerTalk moderator is really lame. Why lock this thread, and then endorse a site whose entire business is based on selling other people's property? 2) Whether or not I am a moderator is totally irrelveant, I am a member 1st and a moderator 2nd. 3) I can't "endorse" anything, I said that **I** find it to be a great service, based on what I read online **I** feel comfortable downloading from them. And that is really all that matters. What you feel about it means nothing to me, and I expcet it is the same way with you. 4) Some people have taken the time to show that THEY think it IS legal, but you seem to ignore those posts. |
Originally Posted by murphy
Several people want it to be legal, and are willing to contort themselves to make it seem so. But come on, does this site really pass the sniff test? Really, if one is comfortable taking music and not having the people who created it be compensated, fine. It's none of my business. But to claim this service is any more legal than gnutella or the illegal torrent sites is wrong.
Having it be endorsed by a FlyerTalk moderator is really lame. Why lock this thread, and then endorse a site whose entire business is based on selling other people's property? 1) Their means of gathering content are illegal (grabbing off TV or using camcorders in a theater) 2) I have yet to see ANY torrent uploader point to a rights organization and tell me that they pay dues to that body. Unless of course you visit some torrent site I've never heard of... 3) With P2P distribution I am receiving the content from 1000's of peers, and I have no way of verifying whether those peers have legal rights to own the content they distribute, in the case of Allofmp3 they DO claim that they pay dues over their content, the only issue unanswered (even by the RIAA) is whether or not it really is illegal to download content from a provider that pays licensing fees to a foreign organization. |
Originally Posted by murphy
Several people want it to be legal, and are willing to contort themselves to make it seem so. But come on, does this site really pass the sniff test? Really, if one is comfortable taking music and not having the people who created it be compensated, fine. It's none of my business. But to claim this service is any more legal than gnutella or the illegal torrent sites is wrong.
Having it be endorsed by a FlyerTalk moderator is really lame. Why lock this thread, and then endorse a site whose entire business is based on selling other people's property? Are they not innocent until proven guilty? I haven't seen any proof that the service is illegal from someone who has the authority to say for certain. The people who created the music are being compensated. The site pays ROMS, the Russian Multimedia and Internet Society, which in turn pays the artists their due royalty. It's the RIAA and the labels who are not compensated in the same amount that they would be if the music were sold in the US. My understanding is that it is basically the same as going to Russia and buying the physical CD there. CDs cost about that much in Russia. I don't understand why you feel like there is something wrong when all the evidence suggests that there is in fact nothing illegal happening. I haven't seen any proof that there is anything illegal. I do think that this is a loophole, but there is nothing illegal about taking advantage of a loophole. |
Originally Posted by ScottC
Your logic is of course bogus. The people that upload a torrent do several things that make it clear that it is illegal:
1) Their means of gathering content are illegal (grabbing off TV or using camcorders in a theater) 2) I have yet to see ANY torrent uploader point to a rights organization and tell me that they pay dues to that body. Unless of course you visit some torrent site I've never heard of... 3) With P2P distribution I am receiving the content from 1000's of peers, and I have no way of verifying whether those peers have legal rights to own the content they distribute, in the case of Allofmp3 they DO claim that they pay dues over their content, the only issue unanswered (even by the RIAA) is whether or not it really is illegal to download content from a provider that pays licensing fees to a foreign organization. "The General Assembly of CISAC decided at its meeting in Seoul on October 2004 to expel Russian organization ROMS from CISAC membership on the grounds that it has been issuing licenses to copyright users without the authority to do so from all relevant copyright owners." IFPI has made it very clear that allofmp3 has no right to distribute its material. "... f it is true that the prosecutor has not taken the case this would be very disappointing, considering the blatant and large-scale infringement that continues to take place.” Here's a long article from a lawyer who appears to know much more than me about copyright. He claims it's illegal. "The reasoning of those who assert that downloading from allofmp3 is legal ignores basic copyright law and often appears to be nothing more than manipulating the issues involved to arrive at the desired answer. For those seeking cheap alternatives to illegal downloading via P2P and other sources, allofmp3 is an attractive possibility. It is not, however, one that falls within legal boundaries." Here's an article from slate that concludes it's "probably" illegal. "2. Is Allofmp3.com actually legal? Probably not. The discussion above about what Allofmp3.com is allowed to do with international distribution rights assumes the site actually owns those rights. It doesn't—at least not according to the recording industry. " Here's an article from Jupiter Research claiming slate was irresonsible in qualify the illegal with "probably". "I'm not trying to say what's moral or not. Or what should be legal or not. But this article runs in Slate's Jurisprudence section, and it ain't very prudent. In fact, it strikes me as bizarrely irresponsible, especially for a mainstream media publisher. And you thought blogs were dangerous." But you keep telling yourself it's all above board, and different from buying pirated DVD's out of some guy's trunk. |
it is legal
there was a court decision in russia that allofmp3 is legal within russia.
if something is legal within russia this doesnt mean that if a foreign country user is downloading music from there. but in a globalized world, it should be difficult to blaim a user if he buys something online from another country. so if you download from allof mp3 i can only advise you the following. use the creditcard of someone who doesnt has a computer at all. use paypal to buy the xroost prepaid card. with the xroost prepaid card they cant track you down directly , if you pay allof directly the records will be there for years. i think that the prices of apple music store are too high, and allof is offering a good price range for the music. the point is, many friends of mine were downloading with P2P tools, but after they are using now allof , they are paying 2usd per album and doing it "LEGALLLY " now. so users are willing to pay for music but the prices should be fair. if apple offered these prices, i think a lot lot more people would download, and in the end the labels would earn more many than now. dp |
Originally Posted by murphy
The rights organization you keep talking about (ROMS) was kicked out of CISAC.
"The General Assembly of CISAC decided at its meeting in Seoul on October 2004 to expel Russian organization ROMS from CISAC membership on the grounds that it has been issuing licenses to copyright users without the authority to do so from all relevant copyright owners." IFPI has made it very clear that allofmp3 has no right to distribute its material. "... f it is true that the prosecutor has not taken the case this would be very disappointing, considering the blatant and large-scale infringement that continues to take place.” Here's a long article from a lawyer who appears to know much more than me about copyright. He claims it's illegal. "The reasoning of those who assert that downloading from allofmp3 is legal ignores basic copyright law and often appears to be nothing more than manipulating the issues involved to arrive at the desired answer. For those seeking cheap alternatives to illegal downloading via P2P and other sources, allofmp3 is an attractive possibility. It is not, however, one that falls within legal boundaries." Here's an article from slate that concludes it's "probably" illegal. "2. Is Allofmp3.com actually legal? Probably not. The discussion above about what Allofmp3.com is allowed to do with international distribution rights assumes the site actually owns those rights. It doesn't—at least not according to the recording industry. " Here's an article from Jupiter Research claiming slate was irresonsible in qualify the illegal with "probably". "I'm not trying to say what's moral or not. Or what should be legal or not. But this article runs in Slate's Jurisprudence section, and it ain't very prudent. In fact, it strikes me as bizarrely irresponsible, especially for a mainstream media publisher. And you thought blogs were dangerous." But you keep telling yourself it's all above board, and different from buying pirated DVD's out of some guy's trunk. You keep on posting stuff, but have yet to point me to any publication that states that it is against the law to download music from a Russian service that pays dues to the recognized Russian authority. Whether or not the IFPI and/or CSAIC approve of what these services are doing is irrelevant (seems pretty logical that they wouldn't approve, they have a lot to lose in this case). There is one Russian organisation that deals with rights, and that is ROMS, and they approve of the service. If all you have is 2 old links of organizations that don't like them and one that says that it is "probably" illegal then this discussion isn't going anywhere, I'm still waiting for the definitive proof that downloading from allofmp3 is illegal. Just for fun I went to the RIAA website and did a search for "allofmp3": Your search for "allofmp3" returned 0 pages. Search time 5.625 seconds. Then I searched for "russia", and all I got were articles talking about: Russia has emerged in recent years as one the world’s leading producers and exporters of pirate discs. The Russian government has failed to respond appropriately to this open lawlessness. Many of the plants currently producing pirate product are actually located on government premises In fact, there is NOTHING on their website at all about concerns regarding music download services providing illegal downloads claiming ROMS support. If you can't trust the RIAA then who CAN you trust? Surely if this service that is used by millions really were illegal they would be all over it like a granny in South Dakota that let her grandchild download one song off bittorrent? I then checked the "pro music" site of the IFPI, that is meant to answer some of the myths regarding music downloads: http://www.pro-music.org/freemusic.htm And surprise surprise, even they don't have an answer whether or not it is considered illegal to download from a different country. Actually, the IFPI even says this: 13. What if I download music from a site from a different country than the one I'm in, where the law might be different? Internet activities of this sort typically involve acts of copying, transmission, or distribution in both countries, so both countries' laws would apply. Copyright owners usually take action in the country in which the infringer is located, however. Among most of the countries where the internet is prevalent, there are international agreements in place allowing court judgements in one country to be enforced in the other. This process would be typically used only in complicated or unusual cases. And finally, I found what i consider to be one of the best explanations yet: Regarding legality: allofmp3.com has a license from the Russian performing arts society. It is the Russian counterpart of ASCAP or BMI in the US. ASCAP and BMI do *not* pay record companies or recording artists, per se. They pay songwriters and music publishing companies registered to them. Businesses that use recorded music for commercial purposes must pay for a license from either ASCAP or BMI (usually both) to broadcast on radio or tv, or to use a song in a commercial, or to play background music in an elevator or supermarket. When you hear the theme from the "Pink Panther" in an elevator, Muzak is paying Henry Mancini the songwriter and his publisher out of a pool that is then divided up among the "members" according to how many uses have been monitored. A top ten radio hit in the US will thus generate tens of thousands of dollars in income for the songwriter and publisher. However, the record company will not see a penny of that money. In terms of income, CD royalties are the smallest revenue stream after song publishing, concerts, and merchandising. Lately, rights to use a recording in a movie or a commercial have also become significant sources of income. So when you think of allofmp3.com forget about recording companies. If Michael Jackson's publishing rep in Russia has given administration rights for public performances to the Russian society, then they have no say about whether or not the Beatles can be offered on allofmp3.com. Whomever distributes Beatles' CDs in Russia doesn't ever enter into it. Allofmp3.com pays a fixed amount per year (for example) for the rights to music registered with the performing rights society. To keep the math simple, lets say allofmp3.com pays $1000 (or ruples) for its annual license. Further, Beatles downloads account for 10% of total downloads. Hence the Beatles and their publisher (in this case Michael Jackson), will be paid $100 from the pool of $1000. Depending on the terms on which the Beatles' catalog was sold to Michael Jackson, the Lennon estate and Paul McCartney would normally get $50 and Michael Jackson's company would also get $50. What is unusual about allofmp3.com is that they have taken the basic performing rights business model that ASCAP and BMI have used uncontroversially for 60 years and applied the "broadcast" concept to downloaded recordings. This, of course, would never fly in the US and ASCAP and BMI wouldn't think of it. OTOH, I suspect that in Russia, the performing arts society has much more legal and political clout than do the local divisions/licensees of Universal, EMI, BMG, etc. They have seen a business opportunity for their members and apparently have the power to overrule the objections of the record companies. So I am convinced that allofmp3.com is not only legal, legitimate and safe, but it is also the most cutting edge online service technologically. That said, re-distribution of the files obtained from allofmp3.com is definitely against US law (whether you burn a CD for your sister or offer them on Kazaa) and the site acknowledges this clearly. Congress could also pass a law making it illegal to possess allofmp3.com files, as they have banning the import or possession of Cuban cigars, but they haven't yet and I doubt they will. Now regarding the anti-Russian biases that always raise their ugly head in any discussion of allofmp3.com, it is true that a Wild West attitude prevails among their newly minted capitalists. But it is also true that Russia has many, many fine younger computer programmers who are often under-employed and would welcome turning their talents to a business that appeals to their love of music. Edit: and another excellent description of why it is considered legal: http://www.fadmine.com/allofmp3-legal-cheap-mp3s.html |
Originally Posted by murphy
Copyright licenses grant distribution rights. No matter where their server is, they're distributing it to your computer. If your computer is outside Russia, then they don't have the right to do this.
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Not legal in US
I have followed this topic on other sites over and over again. Allofmp3.com is NOT legal in the US- period. Anything they say or you say to justify their legality is simply rationalization. They pay NOTHING to the label or artist for royalty. They have no authorization to copy the music they have on their site, let along resell it.
The fact is there are several foreign governments who could care less about US intellectual property laws. China is one, Russia another. In Russia it is estimated that well over 95% of all computer software used in that country is pirated. We used to joke about this that there must be some kind of lottery where the loser has to buy the new software and everybody else gets a free copy of it. You can try to rationalize this by saying you are paying for it, but you pay something for stolen property it is still illegal to posses it. Will you get caught? Who knows. Probably not. This does not make it legal however. |
Originally Posted by ScottC
No, I keep saying that IN MY opinion it is legal. Your pirated DVD theory is just flawed piece of logic, with a pirated DVD I KNOW that the guy that made the DVD-R didn't pay ROMS, MPAA, BUMA or any other international organization, in the case of Allofmp3 I am downloading knowing that the vendor DID pay ROMS.
Originally Posted by ScottC
You keep on posting stuff, but have yet to point me to any publication that states that it is against the law to download music from a Russian service that pays dues to the recognized Russian authority. Whether or not the IFPI and/or CSAIC approve of what these services are doing is irrelevant (seems pretty logical that they wouldn't approve, they have a lot to lose in this case). There is one Russian organisation that deals with rights, and that is ROMS, and they approve of the service.
Originally Posted by ScottC
If all you have is 2 old links of organizations that don't like them and one that says that it is "probably" illegal then this discussion isn't going anywhere, I'm still waiting for the definitive proof that downloading from allofmp3 is illegal.
Originally Posted by ScottC
Just for fun I went to the RIAA website and did a search for "allofmp3":
Your search for "allofmp3" returned 0 pages. Search time 5.625 seconds. Then I searched for "russia", and all I got were articles talking about Weird, nothing about music downloads and the RIAA not approving of ROMS In fact, there is NOTHING on their website at all about concerns regarding music download services providing illegal downloads claiming ROMS support.
Originally Posted by ScottC
If you can't trust the RIAA then who CAN you trust? Surely if this service that is used by millions really were illegal they would be all over it like a granny in South Dakota that let her grandchild download one song off bittorrent?
Originally Posted by ScottC
I then checked the "pro music" site of the IFPI, that is meant to answer some of the myths regarding music downloads:
http://www.pro-music.org/freemusic.htm And surprise surprise, even they don't have an answer whether or not it is considered illegal to download from a different country. Actually, the IFPI even says this: So, why after 3 years still no action against allofmp3? Napster came and went in under a year... Sharman (Kazaa) isn't based in the US yet the RIAA didn't mind going after them too...
Originally Posted by ScottC
And finally, I found what i consider to be one of the best explanations yet:
http://3cx.org/item/21 Edit: and another excellent description of why it is considered legal: http://www.fadmine.com/allofmp3-legal-cheap-mp3s.html I really don't care if you steal music, or if you buy allofmp3's stolen music. I do care that people who don't know the whole situation might read your tortured rationalizations for it and believe it's the truth. Hey, have you noticed that neither ROMS nor allofmp3 claims their downloads are legal outside of Russia? You only hear that from people who shop there. Wonder why that is? |
Originally Posted by nerd
All I'm getting from your argument is that they are doing something illegal.
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allof
i think if allof addet the download option only to russia based users everything would be ok.
if you download something in the us, which is only licened for russia you might have problems. lets say in country XXX children xxx videos are allowed, so these people might be able to download and not to get any problems in their country. but than an US or EU user downloads this stuff even for private use this is an illegal action. so the laws of the country you are living and in which you did the download the files will apply. sure mp3 are not illegal xxx vids, but it shows that in one country you are not breaking any laws, but you might be in trouble in another countrie only because you are downloading something. dp |
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