I think you're missing the point of what I'm saying. The surface CAN replace my laptop for my travelling duties.

I'm sure I could cobble together what I need from an iPad if I was willing to install servers in all of our global offices to support airprint, carry an SD card reader, another adapter for video output, and just deal with it when I can't browse a file share (sure, probably there's some app somewhere that can do this). At that point I might as well just carry a laptop as well, which is what I was trying to avoid.

Why go through all that effort? There's another box at the store that can do what I need without all sorts of crazy workarounds and gadgets dangling off the side of it.

I'm not saying Office on iPad (that as far as we know doesn't exist) couldn't open files, I'm saying there's no file browser on the iPad. There's probably an app somewhere that can do it, but it's annoying that I can't just click a link in an email to open an intranet file share, find the file I'm looking for, double click and open it. This works on my Surface.

I don't know why you're arguing so vehemently that iPad can do all of this stuff. You *can* change the oil on your car with nothing but a pan and a rag, but it's a lot easier with the right wrench. For what I use a tablet for in particular, the surface is the easiest tool for the job. I used to have an iPad, but I sold it on craigslist after picking up a Surface RT. Surely for others the iPad will be better and for others an Android would be better. YMMV.

Fanboyism doesn't do anyone any good. When iPad is better (again) I'll buy an iPad (again). Right now Surface makes my job easier than the iPad does.

At this point I think this conversation has run its course. Thanks for the dialog, I am out.

...or not. The beauty of a convertible as that you get both. Even Apple, while their own design of a keyboard dock stunk, recognized that. Third party keyboard docks and cases have been much better.

Such as?

I've yet to see anything that works better with touch than with a mouse, keyboard, or both (or a graphics tablet) -- not saying they don't exist, but I've yet to see them.

Now mobility is another issue, although in general phones and the smaller 7" tablets do much better for that than the 10"-12" tablets which are not that much better than the smallest notebooks (whether one calls them ultrabooks/netbooks.)

And if you jailbreak, it can do anything you want with the cards, just like an Android device.

Can't use it on an airplane, or at least aren't supposed to.

"It doesn't need a file browser" is a matter of taste, not fact; some people like Apple's app-centric model hiding file management from the user. It's very limiting for some power users, and even some non-power-users who are used to the standard way of handling files.

Fortunately, this is readily fixed if you jailbreak.

Not that similar; the keyboards for the Surface (either one) or the Asus Transformer series (and a few other models) are solid, conforming, and in many cases have an extended battery.

The ones available for iPad and Samsung tablets add more bulk, as they require a backing to the tablet to hold it, and require either bluetooth or a loose cable. Beats no keyboard, but in the end they're not as good.

Also, in the case of the Surface Pro (and Dell Latitude 10, and some other models) they really do convert between what is in essence an ultrabook and a tablet.

it's a hybrid. it's also not selling that well.

you're not the typical use case for an ipad. as i said before, no one device can do everything. pick the best tool for the job. there are things surface can't do that an ipad can't. some people might have both.

ipads are not file centric. they are document centric. there is no need for a file browser. it doesn't make any sense.

you can click on a link in an email and open an attachment.

i'm not arguing at all. you said an ipad can't do a number of things which it can easily do, including offloading photos from a camera and uploading them to flickr, finding airprint printers in best buy or using a non-airprint printer and using a projector with a presenatation. an ipad can easily do all of that.

nothing wrong with that. i never said an ipad is for everyone.

a convertible has tradeoffs. everything has tradeoffs.

apps that can't exist on a laptop include ones that use the built in gps, gyroscope, accelerometer, compass, always-on internet, rear-facing camera (laptops are front facing). also, tablet apps are more immersive, making for a better user experience.

some examples include astronomy apps where you just hold the tablet (or smartphone) up to the sky and it shows you what stars are there, and as you turn, the display moves with you, always showing you what stars are in your view. find something interesting? tap it and it details what it is. try that with a laptop.

because this is flyertalk, point the device at a plane in the sky and it tells you what flight it is. another example is flying a quad-copter just by tilting the device.

can you do those on a laptop? somewhat, but nowhere near as easily and with not as good of a user experience. you'll also need to add on a gps, joystick, another camera or other accessory, depending on the app.

that's another benefit.

true but i'm not talking about jailbreaking.

android also has restrictions, such as backup apps that require rooting to be able to access user data.

so? most of the time i'm on the ground. when i'm on a plane i usually watch a movie.

file system access is going away and it's not just apple. nobody wants to fuss with files and folders. that's something the computer is much better at.

with apps such as adobe lightroom (which predates the ipad and runs on both mac & windows), you query for photos based on content and the computer figures out where the acutal file is.

there's nothing to fix. the computer does a better job of managing files than people do.

they look and function the same. the fact that one is bluetooth and the other is direct doesn't matter.

as for the extended battery, they need it. surface pro battery life is not particularly good.

and don't do a very good job of either one. just look at sales.

Indeed. It's why the Bugatti Veyron is clearly such a poor sports car compared to the Ford Mustang. After all, sales numbers are the only measure.

*lol* The Bugatti has the same problem many convertible tablet PCs have had -- disproportionately high price, although not on the same scale as the Bugatti.

That said, there's a lot of interesting experimentation going on -- both from the Android tablet side and on the Windows 8 PC side -- and while I don't think either one has truly found the right formula for convergence yet, in the long run a best of both worlds device is going to be a much better deal than a dedicated tablet at least at the higher-priced/larger end of the tablet market.

Sure, although the better convertibles offer relatively few tradeoffs compared to whichever device they are evolving out of. (The Surface Pro is not one of them, although it's an interesting experiment.)

You confuse peripherals (and in one case software) with the form factor, especially when many of those are available in many laptops, at least optionally.

GPS: Almost every laptop today as a WWAN option; pretty much every WWAN card has GPS. A few laptops have GPS without WWAN.

Virtually every higher-end laptop in the past few years has an 3-access or better accelerometer; while it's normally used just as a free fall sensor, it's available for other purposes if software wanted to use it.

For that matter, Microsoft was selling an orientation-sensor version of the Sidewinder game pad something like a decade ago, and it's quite a great deal less unwieldy to use something like that -- while the screen stays static -- than wail around with a 2-pound tablet and have your viewing angle have to move with the motion sensor.

"Always-on" internet is a misnomer, since tablets/phones have a hard-off state just like computers do; the ability to pick up updates in sleep mode is a software feature, not a matter of hardware, and has been available for about two years on some Windows 7 machines as "Intel Smart Connect" and is now even more common in Windows 8.

Further, not every tablet has every one of those features -- the one I just bought (and am very much enjoying) has no GPS, probably no compass, and no rear-facing camera. Don't miss them for what is in essence a dedicated and very cheap e-reader.

Pretty useless, IMO, except for looking like a right prat using a full-size tablets... narrow AR-type applications like the one you mention aside, and even there, a mobile phone sized device is much less unwieldy.

Immersizeness is necessarily subjective, and as far as I can tell, for a lot of things, having to obscure part of the screen with your hands is more likely to break immersion than make things more immersive.

Further, with the exception of entertainment apps, it's far from clear to me that "immersiveness" is in any way a plus... and meanwhile, touch input is slow and inaccurate for the vast majority of productivity tasks.

Sounds very much like a niche product, but sure. Of course, that would work vastly better with something like Google Glass, and in the absence of that somewhat more comfortably with something mobile phone sized.

For that matter, given a GPS with compass, not too different with a laptop, except you have to look down to use it.

Sounds easier with something mobile-phone sized.

Having flown my share of model aircraft and a few RC helicopters, I'm not sure why that's supposed to be a plus compared to a pair of joysticks.

Yes, the slate form factor is easier to deal with for AR type applications, and as I said, it's a great deal more mobile. None of that in particular addresses my original point:
I've yet to see anything that works better with touch than with a mouse, keyboard, or both (or a graphics tablet) -- not saying they don't exist, but I've yet to see them.

Nor the one you were replying to: tablets are a new form factor with apps that could never exist on a traditional computer.

You said "could never" not "are clumsier."

Yes, but my point is that you can fix it if you need direct access to various things. For the most part Android doesn't limit you in that way, although there are a few exceptions:
*roflol* I believe that you believe that, but it's incredibly limiting to many power users.

...and you're still free to get at the underlying files, and to work with a variety of tools, not just Lightroom. Very different from the iOS model.

Within a very limited range of use cases, perhaps, but it least via Apple's solution, working outside those use cases is quite limiting.

[QUOTE]they look and function the same. the fact that one is bluetooth and the other is direct doesn't matter.

I already gave one difference that matters to some of us on FT (even if it doesn't to you
...and there are some others bluetooth is still more expensive and one more battery to charge just to be rid of a short cable.

In either case, a proper docking solution is better, since it does not require an external case or (in most cases, MS's poor implementation of the surface aside) a kickstand -- the machine becomes, like a laptop, relatively solid and self-supporting, which greatly improves the number of surfaces you can use it on.

The Surface Pro is a relatively high-powered system compared to almost any other tablet out there, a few other i5-based systems aside. By laptop standards, its battery life is already decent... and it is vastly faster than any ARM-based system.

The extended battery also helps the stability of the system, and in the case of the Transformer (and anecdotally, the Latitude 10/XPS 10, although I haven't had a chance to play with either one one with a keyboard dock) extends the battery into a truly all-day device, something not true even for most tablets.

Convertibles as something other than a niche "tablet pc" product are a very new market, and tend to be pricy, but they are being refined rapidly, and in the long run, I think they're where ultramobile computing is going... absorbing both the larger tablets and the subnotebook/ultrabook space.

Pdxer will have kittens over the Asus Padfone Infinity. Having used the older version, I think the padfone is where the market should be going.

My 7 in acer tablet died on me once again. First time was still under warranty so shipped it back to acer and they fixed it free. Now it is out of warranty. Anyone have any suggestions for a good reasonably priced tablet? I'm in NYC so need US one. Wifi not necessarily 3 or 4 g.

Nexus 7. Should be tons available on your local Craigslist.

Im liking my kindle fire HD.

Snappy performance easy access to apps and tv series and movies.

The ipad minis screen isn't as nice and the bigger ones are too big for international travel for me.



Uncle Dave

Nexus 7 is the obvious choice - there's probably a refresh coming in a few months so prices have dropped recently from retailers.

The nexus 7 is a great tablet.

The only area the kindle fire hd wins against the Nexus is in connectivity to a larger display device.

The kindle has an HDMI port so you can watch your movies or run your apps on a huge tv screen in you want.

Otherwise I agree the Nexus is superior.

UD

Galaxy tab 7, cheap and versatile.

If price isn't a huge factor, I've heard good things about the new Sony tablet: http://www.amazon.com/Sony-Xperia-SG...peria+tablet+z

The Amazon Fire does not have Android apps right?