Pieter Mulder

On my last trip, I had a confirmed oneway reservation HAM-LIS-FAO, with departure from HAM at 6:00 am and arrival in FAO at 10:30 am.

The HAM-LIS flight got delayed and I missed the connection to FAO. TAP staff waited at the airport with a rebooking on the LIS-FAO flight arriving 11:50 pm and a couple of meal vouchers. I asked about financial compensation for delays, but this was refused. I asked if I could take a rental car and drive to FAO myself (3 hours drive), but I was told I could find out by myself but I would not receive any support from TAP.

I left the airport and booked a rental car by myself and drove to FAO.

I have asked for compentation through their online form, but received no answer so far. Does anyone know if TAP does answer such requests or just ignore them?

Furthermore, what are my rights in this case? If I read the rules, I should receive 400 EUR in cash for this delay. Should they also compensate me for the rental car and fuel on top of the 400 EUR? Or is it enough that they proposed me an alternative flight?

SK AAR

The issue is there that in sense of EU Reg 261/04 you didn't arrive late at your final destination (FAO) because you decided to interupt the journey and skip the last leg LIS-FAO, which made totally sense in the situation but unfortunately it also means that there is no comp. for delay; you never arrived late at FAO and to TP you voluntarily changed the destination to LIS and you didn't arrive with significant delay into LIS.

There is no right to find your own transportation and claim reimbursement when TP offered you their next available flight to FAO.

It has been reported in this forum that TP takes very long to reply to complaints like this, if a reply at all.

Pieter Mulder

Thanks for your reply, SK AAR.

I was fearing I would put the compensation amount at risk in case I decided not to take the alternative flight. But that would have been much more complicated and probably expensive as well. The alternative flight arrived around midnight at FAO airport, the car rental company I had booked a car with would have been closed for a long time (and I would have lost my reservation) and it would not have been possible to pick up the key of the rental house I had booked until the next morning. So then I find myself in the middle of the night in FAO airport, without car, without a place to stay, without support from TAP... what would I have done then?

By no means I voluntarily changed my destination to LIS. It was the only option that made sense. I booked my own rental car from LIS to FAO and I arrived at FAO airport 5 hours later than planned, but still in time to pick up the rental car and the keys of the house I had booked. It seems to me TAP would have been able to that for me as well - I have been offered train rides or rental cars before by airlines, in case of missed connections when the airline could not offer a decent alternative.

Furthermore, I have found out only later on that there was an afternoon flight from LIS to FAO as well. Expertflyer shows availability for that particular flight (C6D6Z6J6I6), but I don't know if that's reliable after date?

SK AAR

I'm afraid that the various good reasons for you to rent a car in LIS will not help you much in the discussion with TAP. TAP offered to rebook you into a same day flight so there was no obligation to send you by rail or rental car instead.

As for the afternoon LIS-FAO flight (which most likely have been sold out at the time of rebooking) it is a bit late to become aware of that flight. Did you inquire about any earlier TAP flights to FAO? (as one of the first things I would have investigated this on my own and specifically inquired about this flight when talking to TAP about rebooking). Even if sold out in the morning there would still have been chance that you would have been accepted for the fligh on standby basis in the afternoon.

Sorry, I don't see any succesful outcome of this claim.

corporate-wage-slave

I agree it seems unlikely you will recover your losses here (maybe travel insurance?) but you may be able to get a part refund on the LIS-FAO leg, since a delay over 5 hours can count as a cancellation. That still doesn't allow you to rebook yourself, but you may be able to retrieve that component of the ticket, which I suspect won't be much. If it happens again - well firstly check to see if there are any no-shows for the earlier flights - but after that you best head to Oriente station in Lisbon where there are regular coaches and a few trains going to Faro, 3 hour journey time. Oriente is pretty close to the airport, 3km and less than 10 minutes in a taxi. It's still unlikely that TAP will refund the ticket, but it's likely to be in the 10€ - 30€ range for the fare. Had you sat out the delay - and it's quite understandable that you didn't - then you would have perhaps be looking at compensation, depending on the cause of the delay, but as note, TAP don't have a sparklng record in this department.

Pieter Mulder

Still, there is something I don't understand. If we forget about the rental car costs... that was my own decision and I can assume the costs, that's not the core of the problem.

So I missed my connection in LIS and I did not arrive at the planned time in FAO. That's exactly why EU261 wants to compensate the passengers, right? Now if I had actually taken the alternative flight, I would have had the right to get 400 EUR compensation, but since I did not take the flight, I get no compensation at all? Where's the logic in that?

The way I read EU261 is that a long delay equals a cancellation and that in case of a cancellation they have to pay compensation AND offer re-routing. Why would I lose the right of compensation in case I don't accept their (bad) re-routing offer? EU261 does not say anything about the passenger being obliged to accept the airline's offer?

Furthermore, they explicitly refused compensation at the ticket office, and they refused to pay me a hotel night at FAO airport if I had taken the FAO flight. Aren't they obliged to do so under Article 9, Right of care ("hotel accommodation in cases where a stay of one or more nights become necessary"). A hotel night would have been necessary as I could not check into my booked accomodation after midnight.

Regarding the afternoon flight, this is indeed my mistake, TAP did not want to discuss anything at the ticket office, they kept on saying no to everything. And I had not even thought of the possibility of an afternoon flight, since they have not offered it to me. However, I only saw afterwards those flights are rarely fully booked and I see availability on Experflyer for this flights - but I don't know how reliable this is, I have no experience with Expertflyer availability data.

SK AAR

The problem is that you were never on the TAP flight that was delayed. Your reservation was amended - in agreement with you - and your final destination became LIS. There is no relevant delay to compensate.

The case law you refer to (long delays equals cancellation) allows the pax to claim compensation also for delay but it still requires that the pax actually arrived with a delay at final destination.

There is no duty to reimburse a FAO hotel if you had been rebooked (and taken) the late evening LIS-FAO flight. It has nothing to do with TAP that you could not check-in at FAO accommodation past midnight.

There was no point in discussing compensation, hotel etc with the ticket office at LIS - these discussions take place after your flight and when you submit your receipts etc to TAP for reimbursement.

corporate-wage-slave

The compensation is for the delay to you as passenger - which you didn't have since you terminated the flight in LIS - and to the airlines to encourage them to intervene sooner and rebook you perhaps via London or Frankfurt, and that didn't work out either. If the onward flight had been cancelled by TAP then that would have been a different matter. Expertflyer shows selling buckets, as opposed to empty seats, so it's not a reliable guide, but on a domestic service I would anticipate quite a lot of no-shows so one way or the other that may have been ok. It may have been a clerical error, they perhaps didn't spot the flight, something that happened on your side as well.

Generally airlines don't pay compensation at airports, so it was always a case of having to write to them afterwards, and obviously you should pursue that and perhaps with the National Enforcement Body too (see elsewhere in this forum for experiences of this). I don't hold out much hope, except perhaps on the missed afternoon flight issue (?). For the Right to Care, that's a grey area. You would probably need to book it yourself and claim later, and it may need the NEB to then decide if you were being reasonable or not. If it was an AirBnB style property where you need a handover with the property's owner then doing that at 1 or 2 in the morning is clearly unreasonable given you should have arrived mid morning. So you may have got that eventually.

Pieter Mulder

I actually was on the TAP flight that was delayed, and which caused additional expenses and a loss of time, for which I want to get compensated.

Could I not argue that LIS is an airport serving the same region as FAO and that my flight reservation was amended to LIS and the airline needs to compensate for alternative transportation to get to the final destination? I would argue it's unreasonable to keep me at the airport for 14 hours, for a trip of only 250 km which I can do in 2,5 hours by car...

Yes sure it has something to do with TAP that I could not check-in at my accomodation: it's entirely their fault I would have arrived late! I had a contract with them to bring me there in the morning, and they offered to bring me there at midnight. I have an accomodation with - very common! - check-in deadline at 8pm. Now I could have called the accomodation if they can arrange for 9pm or 10pm. But an arrival at midnight, 1h drive to the accomodation (with which car??? I would not have been able to pick up my rental car, also entirely the fault of TAP)... I would not have been there before 2am the next day. That's not reasonable, they can not expect that from their passengers. So a hotel night was necessary. The EU regulations stipulate necessary hotel nights as part of the care package, but the passenger needs to be reasonable (so no 5* hotel of course). May I ask what law do you base your opinion on?

EU passenger rights explicitly state the opposite: that the airline has to PROACTIVELY offer care (and so far, I have always received hotel vouchers from the airline, this has happened to me many times before). Even if in practice they don't care, and the passenger needs to solve the problems and claim afterwards, it's not what EU law says. Again, may I ask what law you base this opinion on?

I am trying to understand my position, but I really struggle with some of the ideas here, so if you could elaborate, it would be very helpful.

Pieter Mulder

Well, I arrived still 30 min ahead of the departure time of the LIS-FAO flight, but after the boarding deadline. So even though I know things are complicated after boarding deadline and once the flight is closed, it's closed, but I still feel like they maybe could have done a little more to get the passengers to their connecting flight (we were 4 passengers in C class only). So talking about intervening sooner... a direct transfer to the connecting aircraft was probably too much trouble for them... it's easier just to make the passengers wait 14 hours in the airport.

True, I don't know if they overbook C class as well, but I guess it would have been a possibility there were no shows or even free seats available on that flight, and they haven't seen it. I guess I can ask them for proof this flight was not available and the late night flight was the next available option. Indeed I forgot to check myself, in the stress of rebooking everything, but it's not my obligation, it's theirs.

I will do that for sure!

It was indeed an AirBnB style property with handover with the agency that closes at 8pm, which was clearly communicated at booking, and which was also the reason I booked the early morning flight.

LondonElite

I think it has been explained to you quite clearly. Yes, it is true that there is little logic in forcing you to complete your journey on a rebooked flight rather than proactively getting yourself a rental car, but if there were no rules framework for EC261 then it would be a nightmare to administer. You decided, for good reasons, to interrupt the journey and make your own way to FAO. TP would have gotten you there, possibly later, but that is its own problem. They will not pay out compensation because they did not actually get you to your destination late. You ended the contract in LIS. Sorry, but the only resolution I see here is with travel insurance for the car rental.

jochen_vdk

Maybe a little late but I don't agree with most of the people above. You had a contract with TAP for bringing you to a specific airport at a specific time. They did not fulfill the contract and therefore you were forced to make changes, you made expenses and lost time.

Now, I see lots of discussions about EU261, but national law is about compensation for damages and losses. EU261 is only about the compensation for the loss of time, which they express as lump sum depending on the distance of the flight, to keep things simple.

You can ask them for EU261 compensation of 400 EUR, and let them know at the same time that you will go after them according to national law for losses and damages caused by this delay, if they refuse this lump sum compensation. Don't talk about arriving too late in the hotel. Follow up through social media and be VERY persistant. TAP is not great with paying compensation but I have been successful before and you can read in the dedicated topic that other people have been successful as well. I think your chances are rather high to get something, either 400 EUR or the reimbursement of the rental car.

Worst case, a local court will have to decide whether the airline can expect from you to wait 14 hours in the airport if you can do the trip by car in 2.5 hours.

Pieter Mulder

Thank you very much for your help, jochen_vdk!
I did exactly that and received today the answer from TAP that they will reimburse 800 EUR in cash or 1.200 EUR as travel voucher (we were 2 pax in the booking).

Meanwhile, several specialized lawyers confirmed that they would actually hold TAP liable for my losses and that skipping the last leg does NOT make me lose my right to compensation for damages.

kai.lileboo

Congrats! It is very rare that TAP actually consider anything Take cash and goodbye!