OZ,

You may have misunderstood what I was trying to say. We can not go back and modify anything in a closed thread. Once we move a thread, the original location is unavailable to the moderators. In Punki's example, I thought she wanted a reference (hyperlink)in the original thread to the new address. If this were technically possible, I agree this would be helpful to readers.

In active threads under my moderation control (MilesBuzz and United), I can edit someone else's posting. It's extremely rare for anyone to do it though. The only circumstances would be in cases of expletives or a potential libelous statement. When it does happen, the post will clearly indicate the moderator touched it.

Thanks Craig. I see what you say .. the NEW URL is not evident until the thread is locked and then you can't get into the locked thread. OK.

I guess we only need to know this on a need to know basis, and as we do not know what we need to know, we will never know, nor do we need to know anyway.

With or without the new url, it would be wonderful if the modrators used polite, welcoming and enabling language when moving threads. I think you do a great job, Craig, but often see moderator posts which are terse to the point of being rude and even more which do not include any direction to the new thread location.

I am studying the new guidelines to determine whether they are in line with my personal beliefs. One of the reasons for begining this thread was to see whether or not the general desires of the FT Community were in line with my thinking on Moderator duties. I would not wish to serve if the primary moderator roles were to move threads around and close entire threads when individual posters became disruptive, as I think that it an unhealthy practice as well as ineffective.

Punki,

Reading through this thread, and your last post in particular, I think you are describing a different job altogether. If I understand you correctly, you are primarily interested in welcoming and helping new users become acclimated to FT and how it is organized. Maybe this is sort of a welcome wagon type job. Or it could be accomplished with a New User's FAQ link at the top of the main page. Of course that assumes people actually would use such an FAQ.

Anyway, FWIW, those are my thoughts.

My observation is the moderators do a pretty good job in keeping things as civil as possible given the instant nature of the internet. A topic can get out of hand quickly and only a full-time single forum moderator would have any chance in keeping up, a job I wouldn't want myself.

So I guess I'll end this by saying thanks to the moderators for giving of their time.

JeffS, I apologize for have been unclear. What I am trying to say is that during the course of moderating, particularly when moving threads (which would appear to have been the primary role of moderators, heretofore), that I would like to see moderators act in a more friendly, welcoming and enabling manner. It should always, IMHO, be assumed (by moderators and general members alike) that the misposter made an honest mistake and movement of their posts to a more appropriate position should be done as gently and informatively as possible. There have been times when the movement and the comments surrounding it, especially from the general membership, have appeared accusatory and almost punitive. That is, IMHO, unacceptable behavior for either moderators or general members.

The three tasks I listed above:

1. Welcoming and supporting (assisting) new members;
2. Preventing (derailing) abuse; and
3. Shepherding posts into the right field.

are not of my making, but are a summary of the guidelines and rules for moderators, taken in their entirety.

My primary concern is that I think it is inappropriate for moderators to close down valuable discussions, just because one or two flamers attack a thread. I would far prefer to see the flaming posts removed, allowing the valuable discussion to continue.

To my knowledge, this method of moderation has not been exercised on FT. Of course, it is entirely possible that it has been implemented so successfully that it was invisible, and if that is the case, I heartily congratulate the Moderators for their very skillful work. Unfortunately, the only Moderation method I have observed on FT is the locking down or removing of entire threads, which IMHO, places too much power into the hands of the disruptive posters.

Does anyone have any feeling on this particular issue?

Punki,

I understand and actually meant to comment on the "gentleness" factor but was distracted during my response so I forgot to add those comments. I agree that the moderators should moderate in a friendly manner. Is it possible that, in most cases, they are doing so but the written word may sometimes seem more harsh than if one was speaking exactly the same words? I can only base my opinion on the moderators I've observed in action and this is admittedly limited to a select few forums. I've not felt that any of the "moves" or "reminders to keep on topic" posts by moderators were rude or harsh. However, in your last post you specifically mentioned "the general memebership" in regards to this activity. That is where I see the rudeness if there is any.

With regards to deleting posts I'm uncomfortable with doing so as it introduces a censorship role I don't believe is intended as part of a moderator's duties. Believe me, I would love to just delete whole threads sometimes as they can get pretty wacky, but that my opinion and others may disagree.

If you want to see an example of strict moderation go visit:

www.televisionwithoutpity.com

This site has very specific and strict posting rules, and the moderators are very vigilant. In some respects I like what they do but still wonder if they turn off new users who are trying to post according to the rules but mess up. Basically you can get a timeout for not following the posting rules. Something like several instances of starting another topic on the same subject as an existing topic may earn you a timeout. Interesting approach but I don't think most here would want to go that route. That and it would require a lot more of the moderator's already limited free time.

Just another two cents of my opinion.

Punki claimed:
Absolutely not true.

Both Craig6z and cblaisd, for example, manage to moderate many threads at the UA forum without locking them down. They post short reminders to stay on topic; it often works.

blairvanhorn, have you been hanging out with Hunki? He, too,is fond of telling me what I have and have not seen. Fortunately, after 30 years, he has at least been trained not to tell me how I feel anymore.

While I am not at all suprised that:

as they are both excellent moderators who are known to me to do a wonderful job, I personally have not noticed them issuing warnings in the midst of a thread. It is exciting, however, to learn that that happens as that is a far more palatable method of moderation than locking down and/or deleting entire threads. I would like to see a lot more of this type of gentle, encouraging moderation.

I do believe, Jeffs that "deleting posts" is clearly stated as among the moderators duties and responsibilities.



[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 01-15-2003).]

I agree that Chuck and Craig do keep the peace in the UA forum. I have seen instances of both the types of moderation being discussed here.

Mostly I agree there is a short note to keep focused on the topic if it wavers too much, and that generally works. However as an example of the 'other' method, This one a couple of days back was simply closed with no warning or reminder to stay on topic at all.

In that case one wonders if a Moderator edit (and that needs be restricted to EXTREME posts IMO) or more direct, a request to the person making the final posts to consider an edit might have allowed the thread to continue?

Thank you Oz for that link.

That is exactly the type of lockdown that I would like to see avoided on FT. There was very valuable and, for me, educational information being exchanged in that thread and then...................WHAMO! It is locked down and I am not exactly sure why.

Do the Moderators have discussion prior to decisions of this nature? This seems to me to be important in these "iffy" situations.

I think the way the moderation is handled is far better then most other BB's and CERTAINLY better than on any other Travel Related BB.

If moderators are going to be questioned over every single locked thread, we will probably have problems keeping moderators.

As for editing or deleting posts, I have seen firsthand on another board how a moderator can abuse their editing powers to enhance the standing of their friends. I would HOPE that FT (Randy) would require that a moderator save the original HTML file before they edit another members comments.

BTW, Randy has stated that the TB is not responsible for the moderators. Shouldn't this thread be in "Suggestions"?

Locking that UA one did seem a little zealous I agree. Nothing to that point was breaching the TOS AFAIK, and perhaps a: "keep to the thread topic please folks" post might have assisted more? Who knows. I do know Craig and Chuck have at times emailed posters privately to consider an edit etc, and maybe that may have helped there?

The larger forums all having someone rostered can't hurt IMO. I personally thought this in the CO Forum from a month back exhibited absolutely disgraceful behaviour from a LOT of folks toward someone who appears not to have English as a first language. That person was not abusive ... indeed incredibly restrained in my book given the insults heaped upon him/her. I passed that one on to admin.

Interesting comment. Depends on how many other Travel Related BBs you frequent I guess as to how subjective and meaningful your opinion is. I spend time on <A HREF="http://www.cruisecritic.com/community/guide.cfm" TARGET=_blank> www.cruisecritic.com </A> which is certainly Travel Related and appears to have as many or probably more posts than FT. Similar size anyway. And I have only once in 18 months seen a moderator act on there.

By far the biggest "visible" evidence of 'Moderation' on FT is moving threads from Miles Buzz etc as they simply do not belong there. It seemed there was a (rare!) consensus a few months back on a suggestion in a long thread here that might alleviate that, but the problem still persists.



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~ Glen ~

Come and visit the most ** FRIENDLY FORUM ** on FlyerTalk. No flame wars, no personal abuse, no substance abuse. Not much of anything really!

Anyone who reads that thread at the UA board and doesn't understand why it was closed is in serious need of a moderated board, imho it was a wise move to lock it as it contained loads of personal insults and hardly any references to the forum it was in.

I need to correct one of my earlier postings. In fact I can reopen a thread! Just learned how to do it (one would think after 18 months of moderating I'd have gotten the hang of things ).

So the process Punki describes is certainly possible, but would be pretty time consuming.

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Craig6z
Buzz & United Moderator
[email protected]





[This message has been edited by Moderator2 (edited 01-15-2003).]