View Poll Results: Q: What is your view on FlyerTalk implementing a "Helpful" button feature?
Support
433
59.72%
Oppose
275
37.93%
No opinion
17
2.34%
Voters: 725. You may not vote on this poll
Jan 12, 2015, 9:07 pm
Last edit by: Prospero
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Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people won’t take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
(lower right wiki corner)Some FTers are supportive of like/helpful button. Some are not. Some on both sides of the issue have questions, concerns and/or need more info. This wiki attempts to highlight them in bullet format/"cliff notes" version from the 566 posts in this thread. More detailed information regarding the pros/cons/questions/concerns/info can be garnered by reading the entire thread, where FTers on both sides of the like/helpful button have been eloquent/provided valuable input.
Pros:
* Makes Flyertalk more modern; more like Facebook, LinkedIn, and other progressive internet bulletin boards
* A like/helpful button would minimize unnecessary replies such as +1.
* Streamlines posts
* Positive feedback incentivizes quality content/FTers will post more
* Some people won’t take time to write a thank you but will post a like
* Those with more likes/helpfuls are considered knowledgable
Cons:
* Makes it easier for airlines/companies to find mistake fares/glitches/underground tricks
* Makes Flyertalk more like Facebook/dumbs it down
* FT had rating system here years ago and it did not go well
* System can be gamed/cliques develop
* Clutters up posts/takes up valuable screen space
* Will not eliminate +1s/+1s also provide positive feedback
* Posts that have inaccurate info can also get likes/doesn't mean poster is knowledgable
* If FTers post info & it doesn't get likes/helpfuls, less incentive to post more
* Some who might have posted info in the past will now just post like, so less information provided to other FTers.
* Older posts will tend to have more likes/helpfuls on average than newer posts in the same thread, which can be misleading when the information is out-of-date. [added by MSPeconomist]
Questions, concerns about how it will work, and/or information based on brief internal trial already done
* If implemented, can FTers who prefer not to utilize the like/helpful button turn it off so that they don't see it?
* Is there a software way to separate likes of posts from posters? (Limited trial indicates no; don't know if software can be changed to do so)
* Can a post/day count be implemented before implementing for FTers, similar Omni/CC? (Yes)
* Can certain forums have it turned off such as Omni? (No, current software is it's either all forums or none)
* If a sitewide trial is created, what are the metrics for success or failure?
* What is the goal of this/how will the data be used?
* If customization of current software is required, will this take away from development on other projects such as a better mobile app?
* Will or can there be a dislike/unhelpful button?
* What happens if a post that is "liked" gets its content edited and ends up having a different meaning than it initially had at the time the post was "liked"?
* Can threads or individual posts deemed helpful be bookmarked/saved?
* Can users "opt out" and select to remove all trace of the system, as is currently possible with the ignore list and removing view of signatures?
"Like" Button?
Dec 29, 2014, 8:18 pm
#451
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I'm not going to propose or second any vote on reader feedback until we have a path to a forum-specific button. I don't know when or even if we will get such a path, and I can't tell you what the path will be. That's part of the discovery process we are on.
Any proposal I am part of will outline a path here to forum-selective reader feedback. You will read it here with time to comment on that aspect in case it changes any opinions. When I said this process would be slow and careful I meant it.
Any proposal I am part of will outline a path here to forum-selective reader feedback. You will read it here with time to comment on that aspect in case it changes any opinions. When I said this process would be slow and careful I meant it.
Dec 29, 2014, 8:24 pm
#452
Moderator: Southwest Airlines, Capital One
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I don't see why we can't walk and chew gum at the same time. We're having a discussion of features and pros and cons. There's no need to wait to have that discussion, especially since the list of features we want might change IB's willingness to develop it.
Dec 29, 2014, 8:45 pm
#453
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those bars are for the most part well deserved, because the likes cannot all come from the same people. Here's why:
Suppose Jackal genuinely liked my post on this thread, and clicked the button and told me so, and then Jackal also just so happened to genuinely like another post I made on another thread in a different section of FT. Jackal would be prevented from liking me again, until he liked enough other posts by other users first. This prevents friends from liking each other back and forth over and over.
Suppose Jackal genuinely liked my post on this thread, and clicked the button and told me so, and then Jackal also just so happened to genuinely like another post I made on another thread in a different section of FT. Jackal would be prevented from liking me again, until he liked enough other posts by other users first. This prevents friends from liking each other back and forth over and over.
And when that happens, how do you "prove" clique-y behavior (which is often a violation of the rules)?
because presumably other people who found it useful would like it, which is how the system balances itself.
I've been on forums where people didn't know for some time that this functionality existed. Hell, I was on this forum for some time before I realized the voting on a thread DIDN'T matter
I don't think that the system would balance itself out as well as you think it would. Is that something that could be addressed with user education of some kind? Sure. But the other 2 problems I mention would be far more important to tackle first.
I no longer believe a like system of any kind should be introduced on this forum.
^
people who fly a lot are typically A type personalities. They are outspoken. Assertive. Aggressive.
Dec 29, 2014, 9:04 pm
#454
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*as opposed to the mishegas created of having a trial where only those given permission to test it but only in their own forums couldn't follow simple instructions
Dec 29, 2014, 9:21 pm
#455
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I oppose the idea of a "Like" button.
Over the years, FT's mature and thoughtful discussions have frequently helped me make sense of awful and tragic events. (For current examples of this, see the threads about MH370 and QZ8501.) I don't see how a "like" button would improve the quality of that type of thread.
I have also been here when the community reacted to truly awful events involving community members-- such as the untimely demise of a young FT member (who was a frequent poster in the Delta forum). Do we really want to have "like" buttons under posts about the passing of a member?
What about the times when active FT members suddenly are exposed as public figures -- what possible good could come out of having "like" buttons under posts about a FT member's highly-publicized dispute over a trivial matter?
Hate-filled comments also appear on FT -- whenever a TSA employee is arrested for something, there are bound to be several hate-filled posts about the employee, their alleged crime and/or their employer. The annual devaluations of FF programs also cause angry hate-filled posts. Do we really need "like" buttons under those?
What about threads that are complaints about IB and/or the site sponsors? Imagine someone posts an awful thread about a site sponsor, e.g. a "[Site Sponsor] eats children" thread -- does IB really want "like" buttons under those threads?
Over the years, FT's mature and thoughtful discussions have frequently helped me make sense of awful and tragic events. (For current examples of this, see the threads about MH370 and QZ8501.) I don't see how a "like" button would improve the quality of that type of thread.
I have also been here when the community reacted to truly awful events involving community members-- such as the untimely demise of a young FT member (who was a frequent poster in the Delta forum). Do we really want to have "like" buttons under posts about the passing of a member?
What about the times when active FT members suddenly are exposed as public figures -- what possible good could come out of having "like" buttons under posts about a FT member's highly-publicized dispute over a trivial matter?
Hate-filled comments also appear on FT -- whenever a TSA employee is arrested for something, there are bound to be several hate-filled posts about the employee, their alleged crime and/or their employer. The annual devaluations of FF programs also cause angry hate-filled posts. Do we really need "like" buttons under those?
What about threads that are complaints about IB and/or the site sponsors? Imagine someone posts an awful thread about a site sponsor, e.g. a "[Site Sponsor] eats children" thread -- does IB really want "like" buttons under those threads?
Dec 29, 2014, 9:26 pm
#456
FlyerTalk Evangelist
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It sure looks to me like you want to argue just for the sake of arguing here.
(And as for accusing the TB members of not following protocol to only test it in their private forum--how do you know they were even given that directive? Have you talked with them? Have you confirmed it with Carol? And honestly, what relevance does that possibly have to anything being said in this forum? If you have a concern that a TalkBoard member violated Carol's instructions, why wouldn't you address it with Carol? It has no place here.)
Dec 29, 2014, 9:30 pm
#457
Moderator, Finnair
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But seriously, I think we have listed many of the issues, doubts and problems with a like feature. I don't think we can be more constructive with what is known. I'm not sure what bubble gum we are even supposed to be chewing on anymore.
So I think (again IMHO) we soon have reached the point where nsx and TB either comes forward with a more substantial proposition we can give new feedback on, motions/seconds/votes for whatever exists right now or calls it a day for now.
Dec 30, 2014, 1:50 am
#458
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I've said it before, this is such a straw man argument. It is absolutely not true that if we weren't discussing the "Like" button issue IB would be rolling out a mobile app. It is not one or the other.
Dec 30, 2014, 8:39 am
#459
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FWIW - prior to the thread getting bumped by nsx, the like thread had been dormant for a year. When it was active a year ago, FTers were pretty evenly split 50/50 on whether they wanted like. After the thread was bumped, the input was still pretty evenly split 50/50. After the poll was created, the no's were leading the yes's until recently. But even now the two aren't that far apart. Basically there's not a clear or clamoring mandate by FTers for such a feature.
Cheers.
I'm sad that there's been very little thought given to this by those pushing for it, yet when people bring up concerns, their concerns are minimized, and there's been no plan presented. I also think this will cause many, many issues in some forums, but some are unwilling to consider, or even listen to those concerns.
FWIW - I also think if there's going to be a helpful button, there needs to be an unhelpful button. That's one way of identifying incorrect information.
It shouldn't have to, and maybe it doesn't...no idea what IB has planned with its resources. But given the slowness sometimes seen, the point was merely that if there were a prioritization, one is more important, that's all. If they can walk and chew gum simultaneously, great. Though I still am not in favor of the feature.
Is IB working on modification of the "plug-in" for FT even before TB has voted on whatever it is that TB may end up voting on with regard to this entertaining popularity contest feature for FT? Is TB voting or going to be voting on specific plug-in modifications which it wants IB to make? Will that be part of the same motion or an after-thought motion?
Who knows the answers to the above questions? I would think that having some of these questions answered would make for more informed voting opportunities if these answers came well before a TB vote related to this topic hits.
If this is about a trial to get the most knowledge about how this may work, then what is wrong with maximizing data points and letting the trial be site-wide? Why should any forum on FT be excluded from the feature being enabled even post-re-trial, if the feature is so liked/helpful?
Who knows the answers to the above questions? I would think that having some of these questions answered would make for more informed voting opportunities if these answers came well before a TB vote related to this topic hits.
If this is about a trial to get the most knowledge about how this may work, then what is wrong with maximizing data points and letting the trial be site-wide? Why should any forum on FT be excluded from the feature being enabled even post-re-trial, if the feature is so liked/helpful?
Thanks very much for the recap and the details, Flyertall!
This is especially helpful because it describes an algorithm for a partially-safeguarded reputation mechanism. I suppose that the underlying idea is that those new to FT or new to a forum would pay more attention to posts by members with higher reputation scores.
I was hoping for a somewhat different mechanism that would be focused on posts and not posters. The idea being that a few posts in a thread are good information while many are questions, speculation, incorrect information, etc. Obviously this concept is only meaningful in a forum largely dedicated to providing information. It has no meaning in a social or conversational forum.
From my own experience in various platforms, I'm skeptical that a mechanism for per-poster reputation would be helpful to FT, but I have no objection if the TB wishes to implement it. It's possible that it would end up being a good thing.
Independently of a per-poster reputation mechanism, I urge the TB and IB to consider a per-post helpfulness score system. While no such mechanism could ever be foolproof or perfect, I believe it could be useful as a tool in managing and finding information buried within large threads.
This is especially helpful because it describes an algorithm for a partially-safeguarded reputation mechanism. I suppose that the underlying idea is that those new to FT or new to a forum would pay more attention to posts by members with higher reputation scores.
I was hoping for a somewhat different mechanism that would be focused on posts and not posters. The idea being that a few posts in a thread are good information while many are questions, speculation, incorrect information, etc. Obviously this concept is only meaningful in a forum largely dedicated to providing information. It has no meaning in a social or conversational forum.
From my own experience in various platforms, I'm skeptical that a mechanism for per-poster reputation would be helpful to FT, but I have no objection if the TB wishes to implement it. It's possible that it would end up being a good thing.
Independently of a per-poster reputation mechanism, I urge the TB and IB to consider a per-post helpfulness score system. While no such mechanism could ever be foolproof or perfect, I believe it could be useful as a tool in managing and finding information buried within large threads.
I oppose the idea of a "Like" button.
Over the years, FT's mature and thoughtful discussions have frequently helped me make sense of awful and tragic events. (For current examples of this, see the threads about MH370 and QZ8501.) I don't see how a "like" button would improve the quality of that type of thread.
I have also been here when the community reacted to truly awful events involving community members-- such as the untimely demise of a young FT member (who was a frequent poster in the Delta forum). Do we really want to have "like" buttons under posts about the passing of a member?
What about the times when active FT members suddenly are exposed as public figures -- what possible good could come out of having "like" buttons under posts about a FT member's highly-publicized dispute over a trivial matter?
Hate-filled comments also appear on FT -- whenever a TSA employee is arrested for something, there are bound to be several hate-filled posts about the employee, their alleged crime and/or their employer. The annual devaluations of FF programs also cause angry hate-filled posts. Do we really need "like" buttons under those?
What about threads that are complaints about IB and/or the site sponsors? Imagine someone posts an awful thread about a site sponsor, e.g. a "[Site Sponsor] eats children" thread -- does IB really want "like" buttons under those threads?
Over the years, FT's mature and thoughtful discussions have frequently helped me make sense of awful and tragic events. (For current examples of this, see the threads about MH370 and QZ8501.) I don't see how a "like" button would improve the quality of that type of thread.
I have also been here when the community reacted to truly awful events involving community members-- such as the untimely demise of a young FT member (who was a frequent poster in the Delta forum). Do we really want to have "like" buttons under posts about the passing of a member?
What about the times when active FT members suddenly are exposed as public figures -- what possible good could come out of having "like" buttons under posts about a FT member's highly-publicized dispute over a trivial matter?
Hate-filled comments also appear on FT -- whenever a TSA employee is arrested for something, there are bound to be several hate-filled posts about the employee, their alleged crime and/or their employer. The annual devaluations of FF programs also cause angry hate-filled posts. Do we really need "like" buttons under those?
What about threads that are complaints about IB and/or the site sponsors? Imagine someone posts an awful thread about a site sponsor, e.g. a "[Site Sponsor] eats children" thread -- does IB really want "like" buttons under those threads?
But seriously, I think we have listed many of the issues, doubts and problems with a like feature. I don't think we can be more constructive with what is known. I'm not sure what bubble gum we are even supposed to be chewing on anymore.
So I think (again IMHO) we soon have reached the point where nsx and TB either comes forward with a more substantial proposition we can give new feedback on, motions/seconds/votes for whatever exists right now or calls it a day for now.
BTW - I was chatting with some FTers re: the like topic & they're opposed. One of the things they said was that if this did get approved, they want the ability not to see likes at all. They didn't just mean in their profiles, but similar to putting someone on ignore. They don't want to see in posts if it was liked or not and that's across all forums. They don't want their view of FT cluttered, they don't want to participate in likes, they don't care if their posts are liked, they have no intention of giving them. So just as you can turn signatures on/off, put someone on ignore & it/they disappear they want that option so that their viewing/participation in FT continues as it has & is not disrupted. So that's a valid request & whether it can be done or not certainly needs to be answered (along with other items).
Cheers.
Last edited by SkiAdcock; Dec 30, 2014 at 8:46 am
Dec 30, 2014, 9:40 am
#460
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My question is how will this be used?
Currently we have a rate a thread button, however, I cannot tell or don't know how each thread is actually rated in relation to others in that forum. There is no number associated to help determine where or how a post is ranked.
These features will help to determine the value in not just the thread but the poster as well.
When I joined FT, I had no idea who "knew what". I had to contribute to see who I felt based on their posting content was "a value" to me.
This could help someone new to FT or new to a forum feel more comfortable taking advice or asking for an opinion from a fellow forumer.
Currently we have a rate a thread button, however, I cannot tell or don't know how each thread is actually rated in relation to others in that forum. There is no number associated to help determine where or how a post is ranked.
These features will help to determine the value in not just the thread but the poster as well.
When I joined FT, I had no idea who "knew what". I had to contribute to see who I felt based on their posting content was "a value" to me.
This could help someone new to FT or new to a forum feel more comfortable taking advice or asking for an opinion from a fellow forumer.
Dec 30, 2014, 9:46 am
#461
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BTW - I was chatting with some FTers re: the like topic & they're opposed. One of the things they said was that if this did get approved, they want the ability not to see likes at all. They didn't just mean in their profiles, but similar to putting someone on ignore. They don't want to see in posts if it was liked or not and that's across all forums. They don't want their view of FT cluttered, they don't want to participate in likes, they don't care if their posts are liked, they have no intention of giving them. So just as you can turn signatures on/off, put someone on ignore & it/they disappear they want that option so that their viewing/participation in FT continues as it has & is not disrupted. So that's a valid request & whether it can be done or not certainly needs to be answered (along with other items).
Dec 30, 2014, 1:07 pm
#462
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BTW - I was chatting with some FTers re: the like topic & they're opposed. One of the things they said was that if this did get approved, they want the ability not to see likes at all. They didn't just mean in their profiles, but similar to putting someone on ignore. They don't want to see in posts if it was liked or not and that's across all forums. They don't want their view of FT cluttered, they don't want to participate in likes, they don't care if their posts are liked, they have no intention of giving them. So just as you can turn signatures on/off, put someone on ignore & it/they disappear they want that option so that their viewing/participation in FT continues as it has & is not disrupted. So that's a valid request & whether it can be done or not certainly needs to be answered (along with other items).
Dec 30, 2014, 1:38 pm
#463
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Does this example represent clutter? (The bottom line on the post)
Not suggesting it's a good or bad thing, nor that IB could implement that, but it's easily ignored.
http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/thr...-spent.195692/
Not suggesting it's a good or bad thing, nor that IB could implement that, but it's easily ignored.
http://www.arrse.co.uk/community/thr...-spent.195692/
Dec 30, 2014, 2:09 pm
#464
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I'd feel the same way about a 'like' mechanism, but I think a 'helpful' mechanism is sufficiently different (if implemented correctly) that I'd want to participate and more importantly, have the option to view long threads with only the most helpful posts shown. I wonder if the FTers you were chatting with would feel the same about a post rating system as opposed to a poster reputation system?
BTW - I was on a hotel chain's BB today & in one thread, someone asked the company rep for information. They checked, came back - and posted wrong info that the company's own T&Cs refuted. Yet the post got lots of likes & that's helpful comments
Cheers.
Dec 30, 2014, 3:18 pm
#465
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Sure, no system is perfect, and likely the people who liked/rated helpful though the information was accurate.