holtju2

What does this has to do with properties participating in SPG?????

Oh well. Hyatt GP redemption rates in top properties are far lower than that of SPG's.

Starwood Lurker

Exactly my point. Comparing Hyatt and Marriott to Starwood is like comparing apples and oranges. The business models for their frequent stay programs could not be any different as well as a few other items that folks like to compare, such as participating properties.

Thanks for proving my point.

Best regards,

William R. Sanders
Online Guest Feedback Coordinator
Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide

[email protected]

stevens397

Haven't read the whole thread but Hyatts' very, very low redemption rates are most probably due to the fact that they have no affinity credit card that allows people to amass enormous numbers of points. There is no doubt in my mind that it is the billions of points out there that causes the chains and airlines to act as defensively as they do, lest they have to give away all rooms and seats!

holtju2

Exactly. You can actually stay at the top tier Hyatt's on points that you have actually earned at staying at hotels. This is not possible at top tier SPG properties in Europe where the redemption rates have gone through the roof.

danwhy

Exactly (for you)! And I can stay at top tier SPG properties in Europe because I have other means to earn points and I could never do this with Hyatt because they don't have enough hotels where I travel and I would never be able to earn that award solely on hotel stays.

You keep proving William's point.

holtju2

Personally I prefer programs that rewards members that actually stay at hotels versus those who channel their CC spent through affinity card.

danwhy

And personally, I prefer the mixture I get with SPG. The CC only gives you points, not status. To get platinum benefits you have to actually have to stay at hotels.

So again, this just proves William's point, the programs are different. And that's a good thing imo, it means you and I can both choose the programs that work for us best. I'm genuinely glad Hyatt works for you, just as I'm glad SPG works for me.

ajamieson

Ah, but it does. Look up a Sheraton resort in Europe eg Spain on a consolidator and you'll discover rooms (including club rooms) being sold at significantly less than what is on offer via SPG. The hotel and SPG then dodge the price promise by pointing out that the SPG rates earn miles and give benefits whereas the consolidated rates do not so they are not comparable The fact that you never get upgrades at these properties on SPG rates precisely because the good rooms are all occupied by people paying consolidated rates doesn't seem to matter

elitetraveler

The Lanesborough wouldn't have been a St. Regis if it was forced into SPG. The deal came with Atef Mankarios who had The Lanesborough when he ran Rosewood and when he became brand CEO for St. Regis, brokered the deal to bring them to St. Regis with the no SPG condition. Barry Sternlicht had to decide whether to accept the owner's conditions or not, and I believe the thought was having The Lanesborough as a St. Regis gave the brand more credibility in getting new St. Regis deals and expanding the brand, and if one looks at history, The Lanesborough has indeed served that purpose. At least that was my understanding for why the exception was made.

holtju2

Totally agree on this. That is the reason why I actually participate to all major five and have an earned top status with each of the, .

sc flier

I've monitored this thread from the very first post but decided to stay out of it until some sensible discussion emerged and the Starwood Lurkers joined the fun.

Some of my observations:

1. While most of the Le Meridien properties in UAE still do not participate, SPG clearly has been working on this issue. The following two LM properties in Dubai began participating within the past year or so:
Al Sondos Suites by Le Meridien
Dar Al Sondos Apartments by Le Meridien
Hopefully others will follow. None of them participated in Le Meridien Moments. This issue was inherited when Starwood bought LM.

2. As has been noted already by the Starwood Lurkers, the Resort at Singer Island is a participating property. I don't agree with the manner of their participation because I don't agree with their upgrade policy nor the apparent manner of determining their SPG category while still requiring additional points for all awards since every room is a suite, but at least you get stay credit and points when you pay for a stay there. But HOW they participate is different than WHETHER they participate.

3. Other chains:
There used to be a property that had the Embassy Suites name in Maui but that didn't participate in Hilton HHonors. It was a timeshare property, IIRC, and it is no longer an Embassy Suites. That's the only example of a non-participating Hilton property that came to mind.

However, it does appear that the Hilton Atlantic City also does not participate. There is a frequent fear that the same will one day befall the Hilton Las Vegas. The Reno Hilton was similar, and it was sold off a few years ago. At the Reno Hilton, the front desk would not give you credit or points if your rate was below a certain price (something like $49, IIRC), but if you sent your receipt to the corporate HHonors office, they'd give you all your credit due. Alternatively, the hotel would offer at check-in to charge you the minimum amount that they would allow for you to get your HHonors credits. Anyway, this is kind of like what dabbagmm was suggesting.

4. The fact that SPG doesn't even want some properties to participate intrigues me. Anyone want to pull up the list of non-participating properties and break down the reasons why each is on the list?

5. I don't understand the following statement: "Generally, any hotel that looks like a convention or resort are suspect properties." In terms of participation? Or just in terms of whether they will offer a late check-out?

6. "But at least spg doesn't have some weird unknown discounted rates that don't earn points." Such as prepaid packages to Maui that were booked through the Westin Vacation Club? How about rates that aren't even necessarily discounted such as any rate in which the stay exceeds 30 consecutive days? (Good news, BTW: "Effective June 1st, 2008, this will change to 90 consecutive days.") Or rates for stays that are master billed? Or group rates for a conference? (Again, not necessarily a discounted rate.)

laurkis

Some hotels aren't actually managed by Starwood. They are privatly owned that pay a pretty penny to have the starwood name. They don't have to participate in hte program.

CaptainG

Ditto sc flier, here is my weigh-in:

In turn:

WScottsdaleInsider (1st post):
My assumption is that Starwood wants to work a deal to provide us, the target market, with a property to stay. If one is already in place and the Starwood Real Estate Investment Unit determines it's a good place for business, it makes more sense to Starwood (and provides opportunity more quickly for us) for them to accept limited or no participation. When I go to a city, I want to have the hotel built. I was expectin' to stay at a cetain W in AZ in April of this year and held out to make my reservations... AHEM so I stayed at a Hilton to work on my Diamond status. When I planned my trip to Greece, I wanted to stay at the W Athens, but it is also behind schedule and I had an immediate need. Starwood's goal is to provide upscale, luxury lodging not run a profitable loyalty/frequency program. I have every confidence that the determing corporate officer has projected sales and revenue presented to him/her prior to allowing a property to participate (except for Le Meridien, which came with grandfathered exceptions). NOTE: Upscale and luxury is not considering the select-service brands Aloft by W, 4 Points by Sheraton and Element by Westin.
Daveland (regarding stay credit):
If you ask nicely from spg, they may post the stay credit for you, just understand that you have been fairly warned that they may not. This happened with the Sheraton Desert Oasis, but the night/stay credit did not give me points and didn't reflect on my transaction log. It only helped me towards nights/stays for the year, and was ultimately inconsequential (I had 45+ stays that year).
ACfly (regarding upgrades at non-participating properties):
If the property doesn't participate, then there should be no expectation of an upgrade. As for limited participation properties, I've been pleasantly surprised... I've found they do, as always, based on availability. I've been upgraded at the Sheraton Desert Oasis, Westin Kierland Villas, a Le Meridien and Mystique.
dtremit (regarding brand out-liers):
I believe Starwood started as real estate investment trust, and as such they were tying together loose brands (Sheraton from ITT, Westin from United, Le Meridien from insolvency) and has had to put up with many out-liers before. Will a particular Sheraton have a club lounge or Yahoo link? Does a Westin give plats a breakfast voucher? Will the St. Regis club offer breakfast? The brands are inconsistent themselves, so it's not a fair expectation. HOT is still young in it's brand development and spg participation is just another evidence of that.
Starwood Lurker:
William, Wasn't their a Parker in NYC that was the Four Seasons before they built the new one on 57th (with that wonderful Joel Robuchon workshop)? Four Seasons tries to write 35 year contracts, so I suspect whoever managed it as the former Four Seasons may have made other contractual commitments that would preclude it from nicely aligning with the Le Meridien brand? Any knowledge about that?
Stevens397:
The increase to a sixth and now seventh category are fairly new, aren't they? Someone (working for the CFO I bet) pointed out that when Starwood was paying the property for an spg award night, they were paying something (lets say 3/4 of rack) that was not commensurate with the revenue delivered from earning those points. Using an airplane as an easy visual example, fuel costs, maintenance and landing/terminal fees cost (my guess) 75% of the expected revenue for a flight. If you give away more seats (or nights) than that 75%, you lose money on the flight. As a shareholder of 2 airlines and 4 REIT's, I don't want to see that happen, and neither does the CFO. Different flights have different fuel and landing fees, and thus have different required profitability and different numbers of available award seats.
holtju2:
Yes, the redemption for European categories is goning through the roof. Remember spg categories are based on USD values. We will only see European spg properties go up (significantly next year) as the US dollar continues to decrease. If China does indeed repeg their currency, the same will happen there. Starwood determines categories based on REVPAR... measured in USD. As the US economy continues this recession, our points lose value overseas as well.. and those redemption categories will continue through the roof.
sc flier:
I'd love to go through the list, but it's 7 AM and I have work
ajamieson:
Good to know. I've always assumed the BRG applies and just book through my plat concierge. I'll try this out next time I'm in Europe. That's why flyertalk is great!

-- CaptainG

Starwood Lurker

I would say "especially for Le Meridien, which came with grandfathered exceptions". The only exception to our attempts to coax non-participating properties into participating in SPG would be those properties that we have removed from prior participation in the program, and no Le Meridien property is among those.

No, I don't have any knowledge of that. Le Parker Meridien did not participate in Moments when Le Meridien was a stand-alone hotel company, so it was grandfathered in with the others who did not participate in Moments. But, I have no knowledge of why they did not do so prior to the merger.

Best regards,

William R. Sanders
Online Guest Feedback Coordinator
Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide

[email protected]

sc flier

The following history is from the former Le Meridien Moments website. (courtesy of archive.org)

Note that the following UAE properties were participating at the end of 2005 shortly before the transition to Starwood:
Le Royal Meridien Abu Dhabi
Le Meridien Abu Dhabi
Dubai Al Sondos Suites by Le Meridien