Time for a merger of ST & oneworld alliances?
Dec 10, 2010, 3:25 pm
#31
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And where exactly dd I use the word "DEFECTION", I believe my words were (with original typos, "hae dsappeared over the years due to insolvency". EI left, because they became a LCC, it is not that EI is changing, but rather that 1w through its welcome of AB has extremely lowered its standards. Swiss had in fact agreed to be a 1w member and for a bunch of reasons never enetered, much of this had to do with BA trying to "roll" them, considering the fact that they later did join *, that is a big diference(and I do recall 1w materials with Swiss on them at many airports for a short time). Canadian and Mexicana are two more examples of lost carriers. Again other than CO (and its controlled carrier Copa) leaving due to the purchase of NW by DL and CO's later purchase by UA, ST has never lost a carrier, and has only grown.
Dec 10, 2010, 5:46 pm
#32
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Posts: 701
I count several of the 1world and * cariers which hae dsappeared over the years due to insolvency, but cannot remember any ST carriers doing the same. Furthermore with the exception of Continental and its minions leaving ST, I cannot recall many defections from ST, but do recall several from the other alliances.
Summarizing the wiki post:
*A Former Members
(AN) Ansett Airlines 1999-2001, defunct
(MX) Mexicana 2000-2004, later joined Oneworld
(FM) Shanghai Airlines 2007-2010, left voluntarily
(RG) Varig 1997-2007, ejected
ST Former Members
(CO) Continental Airlines 2004-2009, changed to Star Alliance
(CM) Copa Airlines 2007-2009, left with Continental
(NW) Northwest 2004-2009, merged with Delta
OW Former Members
(EI) Aer Lingus 2000-2007, left voluntarily
(CP) Canadian Airlines 1999-2001, acquired by Air Canada
(MX) Mexicana 2009-2010, defunct
Dec 11, 2010, 3:23 am
#34
Join Date: Jul 2007
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EI left because they didn't want to pay to link up their systems with JL. Their changing business model was just a convenient excuse.
Dec 13, 2010, 3:13 pm
#35
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"Leftover", "major global carriers" and "number of airlines" are all very subjective terms that have little to do with reality (as does the ridiculousness that ST "only" has one US carrier, all the alliances originally had only one US carrier, it was ST which changed the trend when it absorbed "Wings" , and considering that Delta ate NW, which was in fact bigger than about 35 of the worlds top 50 airlines at the time of the merger, ST has enough US coverage). I am top tir on TWO * carriers as well as top tier on 2 ST carriers, as well as 1 1world carrier, they all have their pluses and minuses, however carrier count is not a real metric, as airlines like Air Adria, Tyrolean, Aegean, and a few others really do not generate too many passengers. All the talk about "better" carriers is a bit of a joke as I count several of the 1world and * cariers which hae dsappeared over the years due to insolvency, but cannot remember any ST carriers doing the same. Furthermore with the exception of Continental and its minions leaving ST, I cannot recall many defections from ST, but do recall several from the other alliances. I would say overall that 1world has been and continues to be in the weakest position for a variety of reasons, and that these may accelerate in the medium term future.
ST has definitely improved, although the introduction of carriers such as GA is a little worrying. Indonesia might be a major future market, but the country still has a long way to go in respect to aviation safety (or even safety in general). Interesting country, but it's a long way from top of the pack neighbour Singapore, or even the up and coming giant of Malaysia.
1 World has lost Aer Lingus, and Canadian ( Canadian went bust and Air Canada picked up a few pieces, this was not some sort of merger), Swiss (which was a huge stillborn mess). And of course MExicana which has disappeared (again)
It should also be noted that 1w has lowered its standards substantially, one of the reasons Aer Lingus was forced to leave was because they would no longer operate a business cabin on s/h services, now 1w has gone out of its way to bring AB in, which is even more down market.
* lost Varig, Ansett, Mexicana, Shanghai Airlines. At least 6 * carriers are so small that it is a joke that they are listed as full members.
It should also be noted that 1w has lowered its standards substantially, one of the reasons Aer Lingus was forced to leave was because they would no longer operate a business cabin on s/h services, now 1w has gone out of its way to bring AB in, which is even more down market.
* lost Varig, Ansett, Mexicana, Shanghai Airlines. At least 6 * carriers are so small that it is a joke that they are listed as full members.
LX also never joined OW, so I don't think you can chalk that one up. MX also was not in bad shape necessarily when it left *A. It just decided that it was not in it's interest to keep going down the *A path and cosying up to UA.
Finally in respect to CP, don't forget that AC also nearly went bust. Neither carrier was in particularly good shape, and it has only been in recent years that AC has started to look good again.
Originally Posted by hfly
And where exactly dd I use the word "DEFECTION", I believe my words were (with original typos, "hae dsappeared over the years due to insolvency". EI left, because they became a LCC, it is not that EI is changing, but rather that 1w through its welcome of AB has extremely lowered its standards. Swiss had in fact agreed to be a 1w member and for a bunch of reasons never enetered, much of this had to do with BA trying to "roll" them, considering the fact that they later did join *, that is a big diference(and I do recall 1w materials with Swiss on them at many airports for a short time). Canadian and Mexicana are two more examples of lost carriers. Again other than CO (and its controlled carrier Copa) leaving due to the purchase of NW by DL and CO's later purchase by UA, ST has never lost a carrier, and has only grown.
Also CO no longer controls Copa. In fact I don't believe it owns any shares anymore, and has not done for getting towards 3 years. In the latter years it actually had a pretty small shareholding. The only thing tying the two together is really OnePass.
EI is a very poor cousin to AB. Comparing the two is pretty unfair.
Dec 13, 2010, 4:40 pm
#36
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I've flown AB four times in the last 2 months. It is an LCC plain and simple, A pig in lipstick is still a pig, its not ust the seats you know.............its the entire attitude. Regarding CO, you have just reiterated pretty much exactly what I said. As for Copa, while CO may not have a shareholding anymore, as you point out its Onepass integration pretty much ensures that it follows CO.
yes 1W does have some good hubs............perhaps in the year 2040 when a new runway is built at LHR that will lead to some growth there, unfortunately as it stands this mans that BA is about 20% smaller than it was a decade ago and may shrink more. JFK is a nice hub to have..........everyone has it if they want it and DL is the 900 pound gorilla there. HKG is somewhat static, and several mainland airports have been growing at 300% the rate of HKG in recent and coming years, NRT was everyone's dream in the 80's and early 90's, not a bad place to have but DL is the thrid biggest carier there and KAL the fourth. SYD? That's a reach. Its a nice monopoly to have, but ultimately not very important.
yes 1W does have some good hubs............perhaps in the year 2040 when a new runway is built at LHR that will lead to some growth there, unfortunately as it stands this mans that BA is about 20% smaller than it was a decade ago and may shrink more. JFK is a nice hub to have..........everyone has it if they want it and DL is the 900 pound gorilla there. HKG is somewhat static, and several mainland airports have been growing at 300% the rate of HKG in recent and coming years, NRT was everyone's dream in the 80's and early 90's, not a bad place to have but DL is the thrid biggest carier there and KAL the fourth. SYD? That's a reach. Its a nice monopoly to have, but ultimately not very important.
Dec 13, 2010, 6:23 pm
#37
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Easy enough to see Former Members in the Wiki link on the original post
Summarizing the wiki post:
*A Former Members
(AN) Ansett Airlines 1999-2001, defunct
(MX) Mexicana 2000-2004, later joined Oneworld
(FM) Shanghai Airlines 2007-2010, left voluntarily
(RG) Varig 1997-2007, ejected
ST Former Members
(CO) Continental Airlines 2004-2009, changed to Star Alliance
(CM) Copa Airlines 2007-2009, left with Continental
(NW) Northwest 2004-2009, merged with Delta
OW Former Members
(EI) Aer Lingus 2000-2007, left voluntarily
(CP) Canadian Airlines 1999-2001, acquired by Air Canada
(MX) Mexicana 2009-2010, defunct
Summarizing the wiki post:
*A Former Members
(AN) Ansett Airlines 1999-2001, defunct
(MX) Mexicana 2000-2004, later joined Oneworld
(FM) Shanghai Airlines 2007-2010, left voluntarily
(RG) Varig 1997-2007, ejected
ST Former Members
(CO) Continental Airlines 2004-2009, changed to Star Alliance
(CM) Copa Airlines 2007-2009, left with Continental
(NW) Northwest 2004-2009, merged with Delta
OW Former Members
(EI) Aer Lingus 2000-2007, left voluntarily
(CP) Canadian Airlines 1999-2001, acquired by Air Canada
(MX) Mexicana 2009-2010, defunct
Dec 14, 2010, 4:24 am
#38
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 701
NOTE: The OP was tactfully PM'ed the above info 4 days ago. As hfly has not corrected and hfly & Traveloguy continue to discuss defection it may be relevant to post in the forum.
Dec 15, 2010, 3:33 pm
#39
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I've flown AB four times in the last 2 months. It is an LCC plain and simple, A pig in lipstick is still a pig, its not ust the seats you know.............its the entire attitude. Regarding CO, you have just reiterated pretty much exactly what I said. As for Copa, while CO may not have a shareholding anymore, as you point out its Onepass integration pretty much ensures that it follows CO.
I would also disagree that OnePass is a big tie between Copa and Continental. Considering Copa did not even elect to join *A until recently, I suggest that speaks volumes.
yes 1W does have some good hubs............perhaps in the year 2040 when a new runway is built at LHR that will lead to some growth there, unfortunately as it stands this mans that BA is about 20% smaller than it was a decade ago and may shrink more. JFK is a nice hub to have..........everyone has it if they want it and DL is the 900 pound gorilla there. HKG is somewhat static, and several mainland airports have been growing at 300% the rate of HKG in recent and coming years, NRT was everyone's dream in the 80's and early 90's, not a bad place to have but DL is the thrid biggest carier there and KAL the fourth. SYD? That's a reach. Its a nice monopoly to have, but ultimately not very important.
May 19, 2011, 6:19 pm
#40
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I don't like BA's mileage accrual.
May 20, 2011, 2:56 am
#41
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May 20, 2011, 4:17 am
#42
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Willie & Doug Parker aren't likely do to anything to shorten their own career, regardless who it would help.
Jun 6, 2011, 3:37 am
#45
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What would be interesting to contemplate is the aviation scene in Europe in a hypothetical case when EMU crumbles and European countries adopt their former currencies.