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Old Mar 11, 2020, 10:13 am
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In order to reduce noise in the Coronavirus / Covid-19 : general fact-based reporting thread, and to create a central place to invite any member to ask a basic question about the impact of COVID-19 on travel, your moderators have decided to open this separate "lounge" thread for related discussion that isn't strictly fact-based reporting.
Any member who can provide a constructive, helpful answer to a question; or post constructively in reply to a member's point-of-view, is welcome to post.

All FT rules apply, including avoiding personalized, snarky, political, other off-topic, commercial, and repeatedly disruptive content.

Discussion of general economic impacts of Covid-19 belongs in the OMNI forum, not here.
Discussion and critique of political/government actions to aid the economy or which is far more political than related to COVID-19 is for the OMNI/PR forum, not here.

This is a protocol for posting adopted by the forum Moderator team:Please follow this protocol, based on FlyerTalk Rules and long-standing FlyerTalk best practices. Doing so will help keep the thread open, and allow our moderator team to aid members, rather than having to resort to discipline.

Constructive, respectful posts, views, opinions, questions, and replies, related to the topic are welcome. Avoid commenting on members personally, or posting off-topic or political messages.

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After a reasonable exchange of views on a point, please yield the floor so that others may bring up different topics, questions or points.

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Please stay healthy,

your FT Coronavirus and Travel Moderator Team.








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Old Mar 10, 2020 | 6:02 am
  #286  
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Originally Posted by stimpy
Whether patients survive a severe illness comes down to their ability to withstand the symptoms.
So NOTHING at all to do with medical treatment one might receive?
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Old Mar 10, 2020 | 6:13 am
  #287  
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Originally Posted by narvik
So NOTHING at all to do with medical treatment one might receive?
Precisely. But if you want to disagree with the experts, go ahead.
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Old Mar 10, 2020 | 10:11 am
  #288  
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Originally Posted by Dieuwer
What would happen if we start reporting flu infection rates every year. Im sure the cases surge into the millions every year. Would there be hysteria every year? Would the market tank constantly?
The flu finishes off a lot of people who were in bad shape, but rarely does anything serious to those who are reasonably healthy. This kill people with much lesser health issues.
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Old Mar 10, 2020 | 10:18 am
  #289  
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Originally Posted by nk15
People don't get it, breaking quarantine should be a federal crime, and offenders should also be sued for damages in civil courts...
If you infect someone and they die it should be considered manslaughter.
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Old Mar 10, 2020 | 11:22 am
  #290  
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Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel
If you infect someone and they die it should be considered manslaughter.
I agree, criminal negligence or negligent homicide, same goes for the regular flu, you show up at work sick and infect vulnerable co-worker and they die, it is on you (and your employer, if they did not have sick leave). I know it is controversial and tricky to criminalize this, but it is not much different from someone causing a DUI death.

Unless you can show that you did all you could to avoid it.

Last edited by nk15; Mar 10, 2020 at 12:01 pm
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Old Mar 10, 2020 | 11:31 am
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Originally Posted by nk15
.... but it is not much different from someone causing a DUI death.
I disagree. Strongly.
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Old Mar 10, 2020 | 11:40 am
  #292  
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Originally Posted by narvik
I disagree. Strongly.
I know there are important differences and considerations and this is complicated to even prove or enforce, but the point is we need to have more societal responsibility and accountability around this. All this cavalier attitude of "I don't care or worry about this and any effects it will have on others, and I will do whatever I want", is irresponsible and can cause other people great suffering and death.
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Old Mar 10, 2020 | 11:45 am
  #293  
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Originally Posted by narvik
I disagree. Strongly.
Reckless endangerment of public health?
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Old Mar 10, 2020 | 11:51 am
  #294  
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Originally Posted by nk15
All this cavalier attitude of "I don't care or worry about this and any effects it will have on others, and I will do whatever I want", is irresponsible and can cause other people great suffering and death.
Well said.

And this extreme selfishness of some posters here will contribute to a death toll from Covid-19 in Europe and the USA that will be higher than in Asia.
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Old Mar 10, 2020 | 12:02 pm
  #295  
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Originally Posted by Sjoerd
Well said.

And this extreme selfishness of some posters here will contribute to a death toll from Covid-19 in Europe and the USA that will be higher than in Asia.
No, that's not hyperbole at all.

The mob mentality is really starting to show on this thread, particularly if one disagrees with the "Legion of Doom" ringleaders.

Believe it or not, one can appreciate the gravity of the situation without subscribing to the hysteria.
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Old Mar 10, 2020 | 9:05 pm
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Originally Posted by trueblu
PS the major issue with masks for everyone, and it's a REAL issue is that we just don't have enough masks in the West...if we all have 2 masks and re-use every other day, that's still 600M needed in the US alone...which is 10x more than what's actually available...
I have to say I do not agree with the ID/global health experts on this. If I were a healthcare policy maker right now I would be investing in ventilators and portable oxygen concentrators, not masks.

The fact is that wearing a mask is a user-dependent intervention. If it isn't performed properly then it is at best of limited effectiveness and at worst potentially harmful. Just like when we ended up stockpiling tamiflu for influenza, I think we are overly preoccupied with masks and hand sanitiser (and toilet paper!) right now and need to think about the bigger picture. I think some of the infection control experts are failing to see the wood for the trees.

Similarly, I am beginning to question how effective it is to tell everyone to wash their hands more. To be honest I don't see people have really changed their behaviour and constantly telling people to wash their hands won't make it happen. And if we can't get people to wash their hands what hope do we have of getting them to wear masks properly?

Instead, I think we really need to focus on a shift in mindset related to social contacts and exposure risk reduction - i.e. rather than measures to reduce risk of infection upon exposure, we should instead focus on reducing exposure in the first place. People should be actively considering how to reduce unnecessary human contact for the next year or so.

Is it absolutely necessary to take your unruly children to visit their grandparents every weekend? Could you not facetime them instead? It's not the end of the world if they can't get to see their grand children face to face and better than dying from pneumonia.

Do you really have to eat that packet of crisps (chips) right now? Could you not wait wait until you get home and then thoroughly wash your hands before eating them? Or better still, why not just not eat food which requires direct contact with your fingers?

Is it absolutely necessary to use that public toilet? Could you not wait 20 minutes until you get back to your place of work/home instead? And if you do, is it absolutely necessary to touch the door/tap handles with the pulps of your fingers? Could you use the back of your hand/elbow instead?

Do we really need to gather the entire extended family for Friday Night Dinner? Is it really necessary for the Catholic church to be celebrating Eucharist? Could worshippers not practise by intinction instead or perhaps just not at all for the time being? I'm sure Christ would have understood the situation.

And if you are a member of this forum, do you absolutely need to do that tier point run? Would it really be so bad if you were to drop down to Silver or (God forbid) Bronze this year? I mean, it's not as if you're going to be doing much travelling anyway!
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Old Mar 10, 2020 | 9:27 pm
  #297  
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Originally Posted by doctoravios
I have to say I do not agree with the ID/global health experts on this. If I were a healthcare policy maker right now I would be investing in ventilators and portable oxygen concentrators, not masks.

The fact is that wearing a mask is a user-dependent intervention. If it isn't performed properly then it is at best of limited effectiveness and at worst potentially harmful. Just like when we ended up stockpiling tamiflu for influenza, I think we are overly preoccupied with masks and hand sanitiser (and toilet paper!) right now and need to think about the bigger picture. I think some of the infection control experts are failing to see the wood for the trees.

Similarly, I am beginning to question how effective it is to tell everyone to wash their hands more. To be honest I don't see people have really changed their behaviour and constantly telling people to wash their hands won't make it happen. And if we can't get people to wash their hands what hope do we have of getting them to wear masks properly?

Instead, I think we really need to focus on a shift in mindset related to social contacts and exposure risk reduction - i.e. rather than measures to reduce risk of infection upon exposure, we should instead focus on reducing exposure in the first place. People should be actively considering how to reduce unnecessary human contact for the next year or so.

Is it absolutely necessary to take your unruly children to visit their grandparents every weekend? Could you not facetime them instead? It's not the end of the world if they can't get to see their grand children face to face and better than dying from pneumonia.

Do you really have to eat that packet of crisps (chips) right now? Could you not wait wait until you get home and then thoroughly wash your hands before eating them? Or better still, why not just not eat food which requires direct contact with your fingers?

Is it absolutely necessary to use that public toilet? Could you not wait 20 minutes until you get back to your place of work/home instead? And if you do, is it absolutely necessary to touch the door/tap handles with the pulps of your fingers? Could you use the back of your hand/elbow instead?

Do we really need to gather the entire extended family for Friday Night Dinner? Is it really necessary for the Catholic church to be celebrating Eucharist? Could worshippers not practise by intinction instead or perhaps just not at all for the time being? I'm sure Christ would have understood the situation.

And if you are a member of this forum, do you absolutely need to do that tier point run? Would it really be so bad if you were to drop down to Silver or (God forbid) Bronze this year? I mean, it's not as if you're going to be doing much travelling anyway!
I think we have to try all the approaches and recommendations, and every little bit may help. The truth is that many people do not want to even hear about behavioral modifications, let alone do them, because they are not fun and they are burdensome, and it will take time and work to implement them, with uncertain results, so it is easier for them to call them overreactions and hysteria, and resolve their cognitive dissonance that way, and hope for the best. It is the same way climate change deniers may also resolve their cognitive dissonance (by calling the relevant science a hoax and an overreaction, so they don't feel they have to do anything about it). But we should all try, at least modestly/ reasonably.

Of course, one may also have a reasonable disagreement about the validity, necessity, and effectiveness of something.

Last edited by nk15; Mar 10, 2020 at 9:44 pm
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Old Mar 10, 2020 | 9:41 pm
  #298  
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Originally Posted by doctoravios
I have to say I do not agree with the ID/global health experts on this. If I were a healthcare policy maker right now I would be investing in ventilators and portable oxygen concentrators, not masks.

The fact is that wearing a mask is a user-dependent intervention. If it isn't performed properly then it is at best of limited effectiveness and at worst potentially harmful. Just like when we ended up stockpiling tamiflu for influenza, I think we are overly preoccupied with masks and hand sanitiser (and toilet paper!) right now and need to think about the bigger picture. I think some of the infection control experts are failing to see the wood for the trees.

Similarly, I am beginning to question how effective it is to tell everyone to wash their hands more. To be honest I don't see people have really changed their behaviour and constantly telling people to wash their hands won't make it happen. And if we can't get people to wash their hands what hope do we have of getting them to wear masks properly?

Instead, I think we really need to focus on a shift in mindset related to social contacts and exposure risk reduction - i.e. rather than measures to reduce risk of infection upon exposure, we should instead focus on reducing exposure in the first place. People should be actively considering how to reduce unnecessary human contact for the next year or so.

Is it absolutely necessary to take your unruly children to visit their grandparents every weekend? Could you not facetime them instead? It's not the end of the world if they can't get to see their grand children face to face and better than dying from pneumonia.

Do you really have to eat that packet of crisps (chips) right now? Could you not wait wait until you get home and then thoroughly wash your hands before eating them? Or better still, why not just not eat food which requires direct contact with your fingers?

Is it absolutely necessary to use that public toilet? Could you not wait 20 minutes until you get back to your place of work/home instead? And if you do, is it absolutely necessary to touch the door/tap handles with the pulps of your fingers? Could you use the back of your hand/elbow instead?

Do we really need to gather the entire extended family for Friday Night Dinner? Is it really necessary for the Catholic church to be celebrating Eucharist? Could worshippers not practise by intinction instead or perhaps just not at all for the time being? I'm sure Christ would have understood the situation.
Are you talking about temporary measures (until a vaccine/cure is ready) or permanent measures?
Because if it is the latter, it is a load of nonsense.
Humans are emotional beings that need contact with other people. Simply denying that because of some fear for an infection ignores the emotional damage that may cause which is at least as bad if not worse than an infection.
In the end there needs to be a balance between safety and liberty. Go ask Benjamin Franklin for details.
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Old Mar 10, 2020 | 9:45 pm
  #299  
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Originally Posted by Dieuwer
Are you talking about temporary measures (until a vaccine/cure is ready) or permanent measures?
Because if it is the latter, it is a load of nonsense.
It's in the message you quoted.

"People should be actively considering how to reduce unnecessary human contact for the next year or so."

If it wasn't in there, it would (to me) still be obvious, though. Permanently not (never) see the grandchildren again?!
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Old Mar 10, 2020 | 9:50 pm
  #300  
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Originally Posted by Dieuwer
Are you talking about temporary measures (until a vaccine/cure is ready) or permanent measures?
Because if it is the latter, it is a load of nonsense.
Humans are emotional beings that need contact with other people. Simply denying that because of some fear for an infection ignores the emotional damage that may cause which is at least as bad if not worse than an infection.
In the end there needs to be a balance between safety and liberty. Go ask Benjamin Franklin for details.
Temporary measures, obviously, I reckon for around a year to 18 months.

Yes, I agree human beings need emotional contact with other people but there is absolutely no reason why this has to be physical contact. Technology now affords us numerous ways of having an emotional connection with someone which do not require close physical contact. Try asking anyone who has had to be in a long-distance relationship.
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